Episode #1128
What does it really take to stay connected in a long-term marriage?
In this revisit episode, we sit down with a couple who’s been married for 33 years and get into what’s actually worked for them. Not theory. Not surface-level advice. Real things they’ve done through different seasons of life to stay close, even when things weren’t easy.
They talk about how easy it is to drift when life gets busy. Kids, work, responsibilities it all adds up. And before you know it, you’re living in the same house but not really connected.
So the question becomes: how do you come back from that?
This conversation gets into the small things that make a big difference. Not grand gestures, but simple habits like making time to talk, keeping some form of “date time” alive, and actually communicating instead of avoiding problems and hoping they fix themselves.
There’s also a big focus on ownership. Not waiting for your partner to change, but looking at what you can do to improve the connection. That includes being more present, more intentional, and sometimes just more interesting to be around.
They also touch on something most couples don’t think about how much both people change over time. The person you married 10 or 20 years ago isn’t the same person today. And if you’re not paying attention, you end up relating to an outdated version of your partner.
If your relationship feels off, distant, or just not where you want it to be, this episode gives you a grounded, practical look at what actually helps bring it back.
If you know something’s not working in your relationship but you’re not sure where to start, go watch the free training at https://fixmarriage.thepowerfulman.com/scales
It breaks down what’s really going on and gives you a simple, step-by-step way to start fixing it.
Hungry for more?
Head over to our BONUS page for special access to some of the deeper tactics and techniques we’ve developed at The Powerful Man.
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Steve 0:00
Let's come up with five things you can do today to make today count.
Doug Holt 0:05
If I avoid her, then things will be better tomorrow.
Steve 0:07
So the trick there is to talk, is to talk, is to communicate.
Doug Holt 0:14
When you really start to love yourself and like yourself, you stop caring what other people think. Yes. The second thing is, no one's thinking about you.
Steve 0:22
When's it going to get better? When is it going to get better? It's just, it's just going to get better when—
Doug Holt 0:24
Like every couple I've ever met in my entire life, the path isn't exactly linear.
Steve 0:28
The best second marriage is with your first wife.
Doug Holt 0:41
Strength and balance. Guys, welcome to a special episode of the TPM Show. Today, I have Coach Steve Matthews with us, with his beautiful wife, Robin, who's also a coach, who are going to share with us how they've made it. And here they are, 33 years married, strong, and here at the TPM Ranch. Guys, thanks for being here.
Robin 1:01
Thanks for having us.
Robin 1:02
Didn't think of a better place to be on our anniversary. It is actually today.
Doug Holt 1:05
Is the day today?
Robin 1:05
Today's the day.
Doug Holt 1:06
That is fantastic. Happy anniversary. Well, here's a bottle of wine from Tim and me for you guys to enjoy at your own leisure.
Steve 1:16
I will definitely enjoy that this weekend, for sure.
Doug Holt 1:18
Well, Steve, you just got done with The Alpha Reset here at the Ranch. And so you got The Alpha Reset glow about you.
Steve 1:26
I do. I feel it. We had nine guys just continue an amazing journey with two volunteers who are on their journey as well. And Coach Neil and I. And it was just incredible.
Doug Holt 1:38
I love that. I love that. And Robin, you flew in early, which is great, and you got a chance to meet some of the guys as well.
Robin 1:44
And it was so awesome to just feel their energy and their desire to reconnect with themselves and with their partners.
Doug Holt 1:54
Such a great group of guys. And having you here, you got to impart some wisdom and knowledge from a woman's perspective, if you will, which is always great for the guys. So thank you for that.
Robin 2:05
You're welcome.
Doug Holt 2:06
Well, you guys, I mean, I've had a chance to have dinner with you guys before, and you guys are an amazing couple. Tell me a little bit about—33 years is a great milestone, and that's why we talked about it in the intro. What 33 years means. Take us back. Well, just tell us about you, and we'll just start there.
Steve 2:27
Like a lot of people, we just got busy with life. Yep, right? We got busy starting to have kids, raising the kids, being involved in life. And while that was amazing, there was also something that was tugging at both of us, right? I was sort of towards the end of my career, and we were searching for something. And honestly, also searching for deeper connection. For deeper connection. And Robin said she started looking into different ways. Actually, our daughter—you started with our daughter—but then you saw this program and you think, I think this could be good for us. And it was a personal and professional life coaching program. And so when Robin suggests something, she's right. But I was searching, and I said, you know, I think this is something we should search on together as a journey together. And so we took this coaching program together and just opened up a new world for us of possibility, both interpersonally with us and just for growth individually as well.
Doug Holt 3:45
Which is so important, right? That you guys have kind of a mutual hobby, if you will, and a mutual interest. Let me start there, because you guys had careers, and so you guys can talk about it. You're going to approach it differently. I'm sure you have different life experiences, but also over 33 years of life experiences together, that's a lot too.
Steve 4:04
Maybe—I don't know—chapters and books, and that might be a good way to talk about that, or just something else that was coming to mind.
Robin 4:11
I was just going to say that I think some of the biggest things in our marriage, like shifts in terms of moving or doing the coaching program, have been based on a gut feeling. There was something about it that seemed right. When we moved to where we live now, it was like we knew this was where we needed to be. We bought a house in one weekend. We had never been to this place before, but we knew it was right. And the coaching program felt like that too. We knew it was right, and I think we got into it to help others, not realizing how much it would help ourselves in our own marriage. So that was amazing too.
But Steve and I started as friends in England. We were both exchange students. That's how we met. And, you know, living our best 22-year-old life and experiencing the world for the first time. We then got home and felt a little sad, kind of reverse culture shock. So that's when our friendship really developed. And so we have always had a foundation of friendship in our marriage, which to me is one of the most important things, because when you're with a friend, you treat them well, you talk, you want to spend time together, you make time for each other. And I think we've always had that link in our marriage of really a foundational friendship that then grew into a loving relationship.
Doug Holt 5:38
That's awesome, because every relationship that I've ever experienced has its ups and downs. And so if at least you guys have that cornerstone or anchor to come back to—hey, we still like each other, not all the time—but I think that's a healthy thing to have. Because then you have conversations that matter, and you can go through those tough periods with young kids. And congratulations—I haven't said it to you—from three grandbabies.
Robin 6:04
Thank you.
Doug Holt 6:05
Back to back to back. Couldn't have asked for better.
Robin 6:09
That's right.
Doug Holt 6:10
So life and marriage give you ups and downs, absolutely. And so the friendship could be a great anchor to come from.
Steve 6:17
I'm glad you mentioned that, because that's absolutely true, right? We had this shared connection of an experience, so we started to recognize in each other certain things—a love for adventure, an interest in growth. And that love of adventure and interest in growth started us on this foundation.
Then when you get busy with raising families and kids and stuff like that, maybe you forget about those things. And so one of the keys right now in our relationship is going back to those things and realizing those are the things that brought us together originally. We've created space for those things to happen again. Love of adventure and growth.
So back to that coaching thing—that was tapping into the growth. The love of adventure is some trips that we've taken together and opportunities where we were like, “Let's do it while we're young enough, while we can do it. Let's go hike around Mont Blanc over eight days and 110 miles.” And this summer we're doing a bike trip.
So if you're looking for something, I think that's one thing I would tell people: go back. What brought you together? What were those things? And revisit those things as many times as possible, and certainly when it becomes just about you two again.
The other thing we did, which I think was super valuable, is in January we did a values exercise. I would definitely encourage people to do something like that and continue to do it. It was a values tree. So we decided collaboratively, “How would we create this values tree?” Well, it's got roots, it's got a trunk, it's got leaves, branches. And we brainstormed what our top values are. Where do they intersect? Then we put pen to paper.
The thing I learned was—I mean, I knew our relationship was important—but a lot of people might feel like, “Oh, you have grandkids, so now the grandkids are more important.” But the number one thing for her was our relationship. That was the core. That's the trunk, is our relationship. And it was a huge signal—not that we hadn't—but like, no, I have to keep investing in our relationship.
Doug Holt 8:54
Awesome. What was yours?
Steve 8:58
It became our relationship. Family was mine first. I was thinking about the family. But the reality is, we started with the two of us. We became five, we became eight, we became 11. Okay, we're going to—God willing—become more.
And we talk at TPM about your cup overflowing, right? That wouldn't happen. That can't happen unless there's strength here, 100%, right? So we're creating the overflow for our children and our children's children.
Robin 9:37
I think even when the kids were young, we always made our relationship first. I remember we met these families that were so awesome, and I'm like, what's your secret sauce? We all want to know the secret sauce, right? And they were like, for them, it was God first, their marriage second, and then their kids and family next. And they're like, if you can get that in order, then your house, your home, will be in the right order for them. So we have lived into that too, even when the kids were little. And what was super cool is when they got married to their partners, each of them, in their vows or somewhere in the ceremony, said how much they admire our love and how that role modeling made a difference for who they chose. So it was such an honor to know that that sort of secret sauce worked. So that thought was great.
Doug Holt 10:37
That is great. So how do you make the secret sauce?
Steve 10:41
Never stop dating would be one of your top things.
Robin 10:45
Even when the kids were little, like even if we didn't have a babysitter. I stayed home when the kids were little. We didn't have a whole lot of money at first, so we would just, you know, when the kids were in bed, then we would do a date night. So never stop dating each other weekly.
Doug Holt 11:05
I assume you guys missed weeks, though, at times or maybe months of dating?
Steve 11:09
Oh, for sure, absolutely. You know, go off and run and coach Little League, right? Or go on a travel trip to support whatever sport they were doing, or dance or whatever, right? So you miss the dates, for sure. And when you miss the dates, the connection starts to fade. The connection starts to fade. And then maybe you think, wow, we're not connected. And you start telling yourself stories about why you're not connected, right? Oh, she doesn't value me anymore. Or, you know, he's more involved with the kids, and he's excited about the kids, right? So the trick there is to talk, is to talk, is to communicate.
Robin 11:59
And a date doesn't always have to be like what it is in a movie either. Sometimes a date for us now is just a cup of coffee in the morning and a beautiful conversation. Or maybe when the kids were little too, taking a walk together. So it doesn't always have to be a big, blown-out thing like, I gotta plan a date. It can be, and that's super fun, you know, and to stay playful with it, but it also can be simple, everyday things.
Steve 12:27
Connection cards, like if you don't know what to talk about. Like, oh, I'm tired of talking about our relationship. I'm tired of talking about the kids and their thing or neighbors that are doing that thing. Okay, well, she introduced us to connection cards. It's just Table Topics connection cards. Leave them on the table. Okay, we're doing connection cards. Pull it out. What does it say? That's what we're going to talk about. And you can have that with a glass of wine. And I think that was another trick and tool in the toolbox. Games. We found that there are certain games we enjoy playing together. So games.
Doug Holt 13:09
I love this because I can guarantee you that half the guys listening to this are imagining this huge thing they have to do to get connection and thus are putting it off. So I love the fact that you guys shared, hey, let's just make it easy. A walk, a cup of coffee, some games, Table Topics connection cards. There are so many ones that are out there now for them, so easy to get.
Steve 13:32
And I'd love to go back to the one thing Robin said too, which was community. Community was foundational for us. When we moved, we left that community, which was sort of an oxymoron, right? Like, okay, we're leaving this community. But it was the community that allowed us to grow and know that we could continue to grow as a family. We focused on our family unit, but when we went to the new area, when we moved, we recreated that community. We were like, it doesn't exist. We know it was beneficial, so you just have to create it sometimes. And it wasn't that hard. We met one family at softball. We met one family in the neighborhood. And we'd ask each of those, do you know another family? We are part of a church. We're Catholic. There was an organization called Christian Family Movement. Let's just get together.
Robin 14:32
And it comes with a booklet, so you do a study for a year. It's not really a Bible study. It's more of a relationship or family study. And that was amazing. We talked about being the sandwich generation and taking care of our parents and having children. So I think it gave an opportunity to learn from each other and to have other healthy relationships as part of our community. Because you are who you're around, and that really impacts and influences you. So having a supportive community—if you don't have it yet—don't be afraid to start one. Our kids just moved back to our town, and they have a new baby, and they don't know very many people anymore. And I'm like, just put it out there. There are so many young adults with children who want what you want, who want to meet other healthy relationships, have a healthy relationship, and have community.
Doug Holt 15:29
I love that. I always find it interesting. Well, do you guys find—you said something like being together, like people are like-minded, essentially. Yes, I always find it interesting when I'm working with the guys, and I used to coach women before TPM, is they'll start hanging out with their single buddies when their marriage isn't going right, or the woman will start hanging out with her divorced friends because they have more time, right? They have more time on their hands. They want to go out. They want to do fun and seemingly interesting things. Well, I'll just ask you guys, do you think it's incredibly important for somebody who might be listening to this saying, “Hey, my marriage is maybe not as good as I want it to be,” to go seek out other people that are trying to make their marriages better or have better marriages?
Robin 16:14
Oh, absolutely. I think having a community of other couples, families, whatever that is, who are working on it too, I think that's huge. Not to say that, like, I love going away with my girlfriends one on one and, you know, doing my thing. So it's important to do that too, but not only that, and in recognizing people who are maybe pulling you back from what you really want in your own marriage.
Steve 16:42
One of the things that we talked about as guys are leaving The Alpha Reset is reintegration back, right? And having a conversation like, what's draining your energy, right? And what fills you? What fills you? What drains you? And unfortunately, you can get around people that drain you, and, you know, so that's default. A lot of times we're looking for validation that, “Oh yes, I'm having a problem too. And yes, women are like that,” right? And that can be very dangerous, right? Or we just look at other people. “Well, I'm not going to bring up my issues because they look like they're just perfect. They look perfect.” So again, finding those people that are working on things and willing to admit that puts everything in a different perspective, right? They fill you with energy of things that they've accomplished, they've done, the progress that they've made. It gives you hope that you can make the same progress.
Doug Holt 17:48
Well, it's kind of like working out. You don't have to be in a gym or a class with super fit people, but you're with people going towards a common goal, having similar values, like you guys were talking about going through there. And again, because we see this all the time, as you know, guys will go through a marital problem, and then the person that's available is their buddies that are divorced or single. And not that there's anything wrong with them, right? Because you guys also do independent events and things together, as you should. But you know that kind of climate, that environment, isn't going to breed you what you want to get ultimately out of the relationship.
Steve 18:26
Right. It's going to feed into a negative cycle, right? You're going to see what you want to see, which is the negative side versus seeing the positive side, right? There's a couple other practices that I would suggest for people when they're at a place where they're not looking at their spouse, their friend, in the best light, would be to start a gratitude journal. Just every day, what are 10 things that I'm grateful for? Robin and I would do that, like 10 things I'm grateful for. If I start to sense that I'm looking at the things that are not the positives—hey, that's happened. It's a natural thing. There's nothing wrong with you if you're having those thoughts. And you can choose to change that trajectory.
Doug Holt 19:34
Stay on that topic. With the exception of you two, are there any other perfect couples who never argue, never have any ups and downs, never want to kill the other person at one point or another, right? I'm pretty sure my wife's considered poisoning me too many times. Totally. Some of them, totally. So let's unpack that. You gave a great example of gratitude and gratitude journal, which I have used before. Help me. And isn't it amazing that, you know, I'll speak to Aaron, I'll see her in a certain light because we're going through a bad time, a bad moment, especially in the past. And I'll do the gratitude journal, not share it with her. And all of a sudden she changes, right? Mysteriously changes.
What else have you guys, over this time period—because it's more than 33 years you've just been married, 33—what have you found helps you in those moments of despair where you're kind of—where I've been—is, man, this isn't going to work out. Like, this is too much work. We're too far apart, or whatever it may be. Could be small. What's brought you guys back to center?
Robin 20:38
I think, like you said before, remembering why we were together in the first place, like always remembering that core love, that core friendship, and taking the time to spend with each other to work it out. I also am a communications professor, so for me communicating—and I haven't always been the best at it—so I think I've gotten better about not just being a people pleaser, because that I think can take us down a rabbit hole, you know? Or feeling like I'm giving so much to others, like my family, my kids, and then there's not enough left for me or for us.
So I think one of the things that had to shift for me was also sharing what I needed. And that might take more than one time to share. It's not like share what I need and, oh, Steve gets it. No. But maybe sharing it again and maybe explaining it a little bit more, and not in an angry way, but really saying, like, this is what I need. I think that's made a big difference too. But it took me being willing to be out of my comfort zone of conflict, maybe conflict-avoiding initially, to learning how to assert myself in a healthy way, to be able to share what I need without feeling bad about it.
Doug Holt 22:12
For you, Robin, what can the men listening to this—I'm going to make you speak for all women across the world now as the representative, because we don't get as much of a woman's point of view as we'd like to get—for the men listening to this whose wife is distant for whatever reason, they're still in love, but they just can't seem to connect, what advice would you give them? They still love each other. Okay, maybe not. They still love each other.
And this happened to Aaron and me early on in our marriage, where I remember her crying and getting angry at the same time, which is always fun to see, and then going, “How can two people love each other but still just not figure out how to connect?” And it was partially—we're both also very stubborn people, especially at that stage of our life.
But from your perspective, if you can put yourself in the shoes of a woman who's with her man and she's trying to connect and it’s just not seeming to work, what do you wish he would do? Or maybe if it ever happened between you and Steve, as an example.
Robin 23:15
I was thinking about this earlier. I think when it happens a lot is when we have major transitions in life. You know, you go from no kids to having kids, then you go, for us anyway, into the empty nester part. And I feel like during that phase there was that disconnection. Recognizing it and not letting it go too long. So I would say that once you recognize it, to bring it up gently. Like, we've—I'm feeling—we're feeling a little disconnected. I think having an intentional conversation, setting a time, a time, and using I language and not you language, communication strategy, right? Of not like you're disconnected from me or you're not showing up for me. Avoid that and just speak from your own perspective, like I want to be connected with you. And then maybe doing the things that you love, like being a little playful. Is it dancing? You know, go dancing or dance in your kitchen or take a dance class. Or is it, you know, going out for a romantic dinner? But try to find those things that bring you together, that you can spend time. I think spending time. I think listening. If you want to connect, I think listening, really listening, and not listening with judgment and not listening to explain or respond, but listening to understand when you want to connect. I think those are huge.
Steve 24:53
I would say, from the guy's perspective, I'll use a baseball analogy, is to get more at bats. That's because you're going to screw it up. Like, you know, she's going to ask for something and you're not going to get it, and she's going to have to ask again, or you're going to say the wrong thing because you're trying something new. So creating the opportunity where you get a lot of at bats, okay? Like, the best baseball players are successful three times out of 10, okay? So you're not going to be successful 10 out of 10, but create opportunities for at bats. The way I think we've created opportunities for at bats: meals together, right? Without phones, right? That's a big part of creating at bats. Going to bed pretty much the same time every night.
Robin 25:39
That's always been a big part of our marriage. It's not like I'm up watching TV late and he goes to bed, or vice versa. We typically go to bed at the same time. So crazy, intentionally.
Steve 25:51
That creates at bats, right? We have a dog, right? Both of us take the dog for a walk. That creates at bats, right? So you just want to get as many at bats as possible, because you're going to fail seven times out of 10 potentially, right? So get the at bats. Like, make it happen.
Doug Holt 26:13
I love that because so many guys especially avoid, right? They go into what we call nice guy syndrome and they avoid. They think, you know what? If I avoid her, then things will be better tomorrow. If I don't get upset and I shut down, I'll just shut down, bite my tongue, and things will be better. How often does that work out?
Robin 26:36
No. And then what can happen is you end up in anger, right? Because if you're people pleasing and avoiding, then your needs aren't being met, and at some point you blow up in some way. So that really—the more you can limit that—
Steve 26:55
Or you create the stories in your head that we're not compatible, right? Well, you were obviously compatible at one point, exactly, right? And so just, you know—and I tell guys, you know—and we never got to this point—certainly you get to a point where you're saying, gosh, we're struggling. Will I be able to connect like I think I should? I mean, I do remember, you know, having tears of like, I'm really having a hard time to connect.
Doug Holt 27:25
Hey guys, I just want to share something with you. I'm sure we can both agree that in order to fix something, you need to know what's broken. And not only need to know what's broken, but a step-by-step methodology on how you can fix it. That's the easiest way to do it, right? Otherwise, you're going to be toiling with things. That's why I created a free training, a training that not only shows you how you got to where you are, where your relationship is missing that love, respect, admiration, and even intimacy that it used to have, but how you get it back. How do you retain that where your wife's looking at you the same way she used to look at you when she said, “I do”? You know, I don't know about you, but for me, when my wife looks at me like I'm her man, that feels like I can conquer the world. And I want that for you. Simply go over to thepowerfulman.com/scales. That's thepowerfulman.com/scales. And I have a free video training for you. You can just click play and see if this resonates for you. Now, back to the podcast, right?
Steve 28:27
Is it? Can we overcome this, right? And what I tell the guys is, like, the light bulb went on. Like, why wouldn't I invest, right, in this relationship and for it to be the best? You know, what I'll tell guys sometimes is the best second marriage is with your first wife. I love that. The best second marriage is with your first wife. And, you know, I can't pinpoint an exact time over 33 years, right? But I certainly can remember when we weren't as connected. They go, what? Why? You know, like we have this rich history. Like, we have these kids. Why wouldn't I continue to invest here? How does it possibly make sense to invest somewhere else if you really want greatness? Okay, if you're just looking for temporary, like, you know, solve my initial problem, you know, I'm going to feel better. But if you really want greatness in your life and in your relationship, why wouldn't you just invest where you've already invested?
Doug Holt 29:33
It's where you want to be. So you might not know this, Robin, but Steve does. We have the men in The Brotherhood have opportunities of getting five coaching calls per week. It's a lot, and they're themed. So these are all business owners. So they've come to a particular office hours that has a theme around it, plus curriculum. And I'm talking to a group of guys that are there, and I ask them, to your point, Steve—they're all businessmen—I go, if you have a problem in operations, sales, what are you going to do? I'm going to jump right on it. We're going to get after it. You're going to hire consultants, the best people. Absolutely. Then how come you don't do that in your marriage? How come you just avoid it rather than going, okay, I'm going to go all in on this particular area? Especially when I would imagine, at least my own experience, when I ask a man or a woman what the most important thing in their later years is, it's always their family and their loved ones. But yet they invest very little time or energy into that category of their life. And I think it's a very weird—so, Steve, what you were saying rings really true to me. It's a very interesting perspective because we, for some reason in our society, it seems like marriage relationships, it's easier just to check out than it is to think about putting in some time learning new skills.
Steve 30:52
Adapting with the person as they adapt, right? As they go through their life changes, like you mentioned, there's numerous life changes they're going to go through. Just support them in their life changes versus thinking there's something wrong with you. They're changing. They're shifting. Oh, it must be me. No, they're having their shift. Just support them in their shift.
Robin 31:14
And this takes time. I mean spending time, but also it can take a period of time, right? So I think giving yourself time and your relationship time, like putting time into it, right? If you're building a business, you have to put time into it to make it grow or to—you know—and it takes a period of time for that growth to happen. And it's the same thing, I think, in a marriage, right? You want the marriage to have that time. I think when we've struggled the most with disconnection, too, we were both just really busy, right? Like working really hard, leaving early in the morning, coming home late at night. There wasn't a whole lot of time to connect. Literally, there were very few at bats because you weren't around, and I was busy then with kids or whatever. So you do have to make the time for it. I think that's where the dating comes into play, right?
Doug Holt 32:15
I love that. Intentional. You got to be intentional about what you're doing and how you're connecting. A thing I find with my relationship is when I don't have the time, if I can communicate that or I can communicate, hey, right now I'm feeling a little disconnected, and I know I have a lot going on, or you have a lot going on, or we have a lot going on, and just kind of calling it out—the elephant in the room—seems to release the pressure. Absolutely. Because it sounds like, okay, everybody here is self-aware. We all know what the situation is, and there's going to be something coming after this that's going to be great for you. Robin, is Steve this exact same guy you married 33 years ago?
Robin 32:52
No, I think he would say that too.
Doug Holt 32:56
I think we forget that. We make assumptions about our partners that they're going to be the exact same people. I find very few people take the opportunity—I know you guys do—to learn who they are now, right? And what their interests are, their changes and belief systems, the whole gamut that comes through life experience, both lived together and lived separately. How do you guys navigate? Well, I know you have conversation topics, and they have a lot of them, but I want to give everybody else some ideas. Oftentimes, when I'm talking to a man who's upset at his wife or something going on, I'll find out that he is viewing her from a lens of the version of her a decade or two ago and has never taken the time to see what books she reads, who she's talking to, what her interests are, and how they've evolved over time. And I think it's incredibly important. So the analogy I use to the guys is, would you let that 22-year-old version of you run your business? No. Okay, would you let them sleep with your wife? Well, no. Would you let them run your family? No. Okay, then why are you assuming that she's the same 22-year-old or whatever age? How do you guys stay in each other's worlds independently? And when I say independently, how do you get to know Steve better? Steve, how do you get to know Robin better?
Steve 34:20
So if I go back to sort of what we were talking about, it's just maintaining those at bats, right? That would be the biggest thing because things will come up that you just didn't even know, right? You just have to pay attention to it. Put down your phone and pay attention to what you're saying, the people you're talking to, and invest in our interests as well, and be open and receptive to those interests because they do change, right? And they should change, and we want them to change. And one of the things I think that's become more relevant, especially recently, is to realize that friends change. That's the other thing that I think has really been interesting, right? What friendships are going to support me and be supportive of the person? Maybe the couple that you used to hang out with—you still love hanging out with the guy—but the woman is not serving her as well. So you got to be open to that and that sometimes relationships just change.
Robin 35:45
Things do change. I think check-ins are great. I love this podcast called The Good Life Project, and Jonathan Fields talks about his good life buckets, right? And where you're feeling with connection and with serving others and what you're putting into the world, right? And so he and his wife talk every Sunday, and they check in with their good life buckets. Like, where are you at within your good life buckets? And I love that idea of, like, it's also independent—not just with them with each other, their life buckets with each other—but her as a person. He checks in. How are you doing with serving others right now? How are you feeling about her? Like, to your point, what are you reading right now? Or what's interesting you, even if it doesn't interest each other? But I think a regular check-in is super important. I think we do that. We take a walk every morning, and I think that's one way that we maintain what's going on in our life with the change. So we always have a good conversation about that. I think we've changed over time to what we're interested in together. So we have our home, and then we have a second home in the mountains, and that really has given us the opportunity for that second marriage that Steve talked about because it's like our place together without—our kids come—but our kids were not little when we, you know, got this place. And so the things we've learned—we cross-country ski there together, and we go snowshoeing there together. Like, the things that we do there are different than what we do at home. It's like a whole other version of ourselves. And that's been sort of fun and romantic and re-energizing to find this thing that's just ours again that we maybe lost along the way but came back to in each other. And it's a different thing than what it was early on. So I like that too.
Doug Holt 37:52
I love that. Who does most of the inviting in your relationship? What I mean by that is the invitations to go do snowshoeing.
Steve 38:00
It used to be 80%, 20%. Is that fair? That used to be. And then as I became more aware, you know, actually through becoming a coach, I think we're now more 50-50.
Doug Holt 38:20
That's great. I love that. The 80-20 is super common. The fact that 20 is a good thing.
Steve 38:25
No, I agree. I would agree it probably—I'm probably being generous.
Doug Holt 38:31
I could take that too, right?
Steve 38:34
And because then that's natural. That happens a lot of times.
Robin 38:38
That's tiring for the woman, starting to be the 80% fun, you know, like, let's do this thing, because then it feels like maybe you don't want to. You get the impression that the other person doesn't want to if you're always the one inviting, yes? So I think being playful and changing things up from time to time so it doesn't become a rut. I think that's important.
Doug Holt 39:03
That reminds me of something. I have a question for you, Robin. Steve, I know you've been asked this question a thousand times, as I have, or heard it. A lot of the guys will say, ah, my wife just sits on Instagram or name your platform and doom scrolls all day. I can't get her to get off her phone. So I have a canned response to that, but I'm curious what you would say to a guy who goes, Robin, you know, my wife, she just sits on the couch. I come home from work or whatever, and she's just sitting on Instagram and, you know, doing her thing. And he wants her attention, and he's blaming her for being on Instagram.
Robin 39:38
Our kids are in the room, you could do a little dance, I don't know. I would say do the invitation, right? I wouldn't judge it, because that can then be repelling, like you're always on Instagram. I would avoid that. But I would love to spend time with you. Or I saw this class in our community event thing, and it's line dancing. Let's try it out. I don't know, but come up with some maybe playful approaches to get her off of her phone. Maybe hold her hands. You can't text or be on social media if you're holding hands together. Cook a meal together. I don't know, but I would say change it up and do things that are different without blaming her or judging her. I just heard something recently that we use the phone to combat boredom, so a lot of the phone stuff is because we found a way to not be bored anymore, and then that becomes sort of an addiction, right? So what's exciting? How can you come up with some ideas together? Maybe get a big blank sheet of paper out and brainstorm fun things you want to do together and then try it out. Or have no phone timing. I think that's something we've sort of just started doing, like after seven o'clock, we're putting the phones away. We'll have it on so if the kids call, we can hear it, but that's kind of our boundary with each other.
Doug Holt 41:21
And the phones nowadays, there's no excuses, because you could set up Do Not Disturb except for these phone numbers, right? So there's no excuse for people.
Steve 41:31
I think the bottom line is be more interesting. Be more interesting. That's it, right? Be more interesting, right? Be more interesting than that thing, and if you're more interesting than that thing, it'll come, right? And how do you be more interesting? We gave some ideas. Robin gave some great ideas to be more interesting.
Robin 41:51
I like the dancing one.
Doug Holt 41:53
That's actually an example I use.
Steve 41:57
And, you know, I was a guy. I'm that guy that is pretty buttoned up and reserved, and I'd be the one standing back. And I've had to learn to accept the invitation, right, to be the guy who can be funny, the guy that can dance. I think actually the pandemic opened that up for us a little bit too, because all of a sudden we just had us, and people started recording videos. So I think we sent one to our kids of us just goofing off.
Robin 42:30
We were dancing in the kitchen. When we're on a road trip, we'll do a video too. We come up, we write a song, and then we're Steve and Robin, and we're here to say—we do this sort of weird rap situation, and then we record it and just take the time to be goofy and playful.
Steve 42:52
I pushed against that big time. I pushed against that. We had the road recordings. It popped up like two days ago, right? It popped up in your, you know, this is what you did. But we went from Georgia back to California, and I don't think she got me to do the recording until we were in Arizona. I think maybe New Mexico. And finally, all right, I'll do the recording, and it was fun. And it just—
Doug Holt 43:25
Sometimes you got to be a goofball.
Robin 43:27
Sometimes you got to be a goofball. Power of play.
Doug Holt 43:30
It is. And I think when you have a lot of self-love—I mean, I was in that state too, Steve, so I get it. Now I'm just a goofball because I just realized it's just me. So were you the president of your fraternity?
Steve 43:42
Mr. Responsible. Mr. Responsible. President of the fraternity, oldest child, just Mr. Responsible, buttoned up. Fear of failure, fear of just letting go, right? When you're the oldest child and your parents are divorced and your mom's doing stuff, you take on a lot of responsibility, right? And so it took me quite a bit to say I don't always have to be Mr. Responsible. I can let that go and just be fun. And it was a journey, right? She's like, oh—
Doug Holt 44:34
I like fun too.
Steve 44:35
And love better too, you know? But it took a while.
Robin 44:41
He started to grow a beard when he became fun.
Doug Holt 44:43
Steve, power of the beard, yes. Well, I mean, there's a reason the book Subtle Art of Not Giving was a bestseller, because so many people, myself included, have worried about what other people are going to think, right? What are people going to think of me? So we tone ourselves down. We dim our light. We're afraid to be goofballs because of what other people are going to think. Until you figure out, I think, two things, or maybe together. One is when you really start to love yourself and like yourself, you stop caring what other people think. Yes. The second thing is no one's thinking about you.
Steve 45:19
Yes, I know. It's like, come on, I was the oldest. The oldest people are always looking at me. No, they're not, Steve, you know.
Doug Holt 45:26
That important after all?
Steve 45:28
The other thing that shifted for me was when I was being Mr. Responsible. Okay, we flew our kids over. One of our daughters was studying abroad in Wales. We flew our kids over to meet up in London. And Robin continued on with the kids to Italy for about three or four extra days to drop our daughter off. I flew back, so I'm just responsible, right, to go back to work, okay? And then I started—I sort of was a little bit resentful of that. Sure. You know, you called me from Cortona, and you guys are having a blast, and you girls are having one. I'm like, this sort of sucks. Like, I want her life. Like, I want her life for a moment. And then I was like, well, that's on me. Like, I can have her life. I'm just choosing not to have her life.
Robin 46:21
And I have felt the same with him, in that Steve had got to this place where he was doing these fantastic bike trips with his friend, and he'd be gone like two or three weeks, like biking, working off of his bike, and biking down the California coast. And I got really jealous of that, jealous of his growth or his time spent on himself, which is fantastic. Not that I wasn't happy for you, but I was like, hey, I want that too. So I ended up finding a women's hiking group, and I went backpacking with them for the first time. And I went, well, instead of being jealous, do something about it for myself. Yes. And learn to do that. The other little, tiny story I'll share is that when we met—yes, I have to—we met as exchange students in England through the Rotary Club. It's like Rotary International. And so there were seven of us exchange students, and we were at this dance with all these Rotarians. I'm 22, and they're, you know, 60, and we're supposed to dance. I'm like, oh, you know, here's another young American. And they played the song, “We're the Kids of America.” It was 1989. Like, “We're the Kids of America.” So I'm dancing up to him, “We're the kids of America. Come dance with me.” He said, no. And so anyway, it took a while for you to figure out, like, wait a second, maybe that playful “we are the kids of America” approach is actually a little more fun than just shutting down. Amazing.
Steve 48:06
I recovered from that. Absolutely amazing. I recovered from that, but I did recover, thankfully.
Doug Holt 48:13
Not surprisingly.
Robin 48:15
But I think you were then worried about what other people thought, sure, where I was like, that was my first time away from home. I felt this sense of freedom, sure. And so I think over the years, we've both gotten to a place where we pull out the best from each other.
Doug Holt 48:34
Well, I mean, it's probably why you guys are attracted to each other too. Like, you have qualities. One has a quality the other one doesn't have as developed, maybe, is a way of saying it. I know certainly in my marriage, it was something similar. I had three companies in Santa Barbara, going to retire by 30-something. I don't know what age it was I picked, but in my head, if I just keep working harder. And then I went hiking with Aaron, my wife, and there was a river. I was like, ah, well, there goes the hike. She goes, no, we just walk through it. I'm like, huh? She remembers it too. And she was like, when I walked through that water, that's the biggest smile I've ever seen on your face. It brought me back to what I used to love to do and what I gave up to work. So similar qualities. She was very much like, no, I work so I can go do these things. And I was thinking, well, I want to do them permanently in my 30s because I'll retire, which didn't pan out for me.
Robin 49:32
But letting each other be themselves, but also pulling out the qualities that you know are in there with the other person, right? Don't be afraid to shine your light on them too, like she did with you, both ways.
Doug Holt 49:51
Both ways. What I hear most commonly is resentment, right? And Tim, my business partner, his partner Amelia—one time she turned—he was having this. I'm sure she's not listening, but anyway, she knows. He was having a typical thing that I see a lot of men who look at themselves as the provider financially of the family. They start to resent, well, she gets to be with the kids. She gets all the fun stuff. I have to grind it out and work, right, versus appreciation. So Tim mentioned something like this to his partner, and she said, no, no, I don't love you because of your business. I love you despite it. And it hit him like a ton of bricks. The fact that she's like, I don't want you to own and run a business. This is harder for me. And I think what I heard from you was come at it from an attitude of appreciation versus resentment. Like appreciate that Steve's able to do this so that it creates space for you to go on your hike and your backpacking. Yes, exactly. That's something I've noticed between the two of you guys. You have a lot of admiration and being with—thank you for letting Steve come and do these events, and I get to spend time with him. He talks so highly of you behind your back, and that is a key indicator, right? Someone who's been married and a coach—we listen. We're trained to listen. Not everybody's like that. People bond through criticism of other people or bond through gossip and what have you. And something I've noticed—and I've seen the same from you last time we met as well—but he's always talking super highly about you and what you guys are up to. And Hannah shared with me that it always hasn't—not that he has said anything bad—but like every couple I've ever met in my entire life, the path isn't exactly linear, right?
Steve 51:40
Right? No, it's not. And you know where we're at right now is probably as good as it's been. I'd say I would attribute that to a lot of things we've talked about. And the other thing is just doing the work that I do, right? Honestly, right? So one of the things that we came up with during the pandemic was so many of us were struggling with, when's it going to get better? When is it going to get better? It's just going to get better—when? And we're like, we just can't live like that. So we came up with this concept called Everyday Counts. And so let's come up with five things you can do today to make today count, right? And so there were five things, but the number one thing, the first thing, was purpose. The first thing was purpose, right? And being really strong with a purpose. And so thankfully, Doug, through the work that I get to do, it's brought a lot of purpose, right? But I don't forget that we have this relationship, right? So it's great that I have purpose, right? And I have to create boundaries around that purpose so that purpose doesn't overwhelm what we need to do together, right? And, you know, the second thing that we said in our five things was, who do I need to be today? Like, who do I need to show up as today, right, to make a difference? And then the middle one is showing up for myself, like we do with fill your cup here, right? The fourth one was have gratitude or ring true. Ring true for somebody else. Most of the time it's ringing true for Robin, okay? Some of the time it's ringing true for somebody else. And then the fifth one was have gratitude every day, to either end your day or just be grateful during the day. So if you do those five things—very similar to our coil scores in a lot of ways, right?—but if you do those five things, then you're making that day count. And when you make that day count, make that next day count, next day count, things get better. You're just enjoying life. You're not waiting for something to happen, not waiting for the relationship to be perfect to start enjoying it. So you can start enjoying the relationship today in little steps, if it's not big steps. And all of a sudden those little steps become something that is great.
Doug Holt 54:21
I love it. You guys are awesome. You really are. Thank you so much for what both of you guys do together and independently, both out there choosing careers to help people and help better them. And you both do a fantastic job of it. And being here on your anniversary to share your love and guidance for other couples in the future, I know this is going to ring true for a lot of people. So thank you so much.
Robin 54:45
Thank you for having us. Pleasure.
Doug Holt 54:48
Gentlemen, you heard it right there. Thirty-three years of marriage, plus a longer-term relationship. And guys, if she does come dancing up to you and ask you to dance, just say yes. That's something we've learned. But listen to what Robin is saying, what Steve is saying. These are things that have helped them go through the tough times, but also the great times. And sometimes when things aren't going well, which is happening for a lot of you guys, there's hope, right? There's hope at the end. As Steve said, they're better than they probably have ever been today. And it's not where we all want to be, right? We want to be incrementally getting better and look back after 33 years of marriage and kids and beautiful grandkids and the life that they built together, that you and your partner get to build together, is better than ever. I mean, that's something that all of us want to say. So guys, as I always say, in the moment of insight, take massive action. And they have given you a lot of insight today. We'll see you next time on the TPM Show.