Episode #907
Why does modern love often feel so out of sync?
In this episode, Doug and Chris dive into the clash of evolving gender roles and how men and women can rediscover balance in their relationships. They discuss why women often feel burdened with making all the decisions and how that impacts intimacy at home. Plus, they explore why men struggle to step into their masculine energy and the steps they can take to reconnect with their partners authentically.
You’ll hear actionable tips on:
- Breaking out of the “nice guy” cycle and leading with confidence.
- Creating space for your partner to relax into her feminine energy.
- Building a strong support network with other men.
- Why decisions (like planning date night) are key to reigniting intimacy.
If you’re ready to restore passion, trust, and connection in your relationship, this episode is packed with insights you won’t want to miss.
Tune in now and take the first step toward becoming the man your partner needs.
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Transcription
Doug Holt 0:00
More often than not, the women feel that if they have to go to work, if that’s what’s going on in their relationship, they feel like they’re always making decisions. They’re always in charge, right? Then, if they bring that energy home and don’t have a Decompression routine—which we teach the guys how to help their wives slip into that—if they don’t have that, then they treat their husbands like an employee. They treat them like someone that they have to manage. And then, when the guy shows up as that nice guy, the women tell me constantly, “Doug, I just have another kid. I just have a big kid in the house. Leaves a mess. I have to clean up after him, pick up after him. Do you think that’s sexy?”
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of The TPM Show. Once again, we are graced with Chris. Chris is a coach with TPM and an amazing man. Now, if you haven’t heard about Chris’s journey, hit pause, go back, and listen to that episode. It’s only a couple episodes back probably at this point, depending on when these are actually distributed, but go back and listen to that. That’s going to give you some context here so you get to know the man behind the mic himself. Chris, thanks for being here, brother.
Chris 1:13
Thank you so much. Yeah.
Doug Holt 1:14
So off camera—of course, that’s where all the great conversations happen—I always sometimes think we should just leave them rolling. But you had a really good point that you brought to the table, and I thought we should just discuss it.
Chris 1:24
Yeah. It’s something that I just kind of recognize—just working with men and hearing their stories in their relationships—and then it kind of pulled me back to be like, “What’s going on in our modern society? What’s going on in our modern relationships? Why are we having so much friction and so many challenges?” And it kind of came to me that if we looked at the woman from, like, the 1950s and who they were and how they had to show up, and bring that same woman into modern time today, their roles have changed so much. They’re out there in the workforce. They’re doing the jobs we have. They’re still mothers, though. They’re doing all of these things. It’s just they’ve evolved so much, right? But if we take the man from 1950 and bring the man into modern day, I don’t feel that evolution. And sometimes, I feel like we’ve devolved. And this is kind of like the work that we’re doing—helping us kind of evolve to that next level, to really be able to support that feminine energy how they need with what they’re dealing with in this world. You know?
Doug Holt 2:26
Yeah, the gender roles have changed so much, and it’s almost controversial to even call them “gender roles” anymore, which is so interesting. Our generation’s a little bit different, right? Like, it’s not as touchy-feely as it has been for younger generations. So I’ll just speak the way that comes up for me: What does it mean to be a modern man, right? Or a modern woman, for that fact? And it always surprises women when I talk to them about TPM. The Powerful Man—there’s such a triggering name, right? “Powerful? Are you saying I’m weak?” Like, no. It’s about finding our power inside ourselves. You know, it has nothing to do with that. We love women. That’s the difference. We’re probably the ultimate feminists. We love women.
And when you look at being a modern man, I was talking to a guy—this is a little while ago—and he’s like, “Doug, I don’t know what to do. If I open a car door, I’m a chauvinist, but yet I’m expected to pay the bill at dinner. Like, when do I open the door? When do I not do it? Sometimes I’m supposed to open the front door of the restaurant. Do I put my hand on the small of her back and escort her through? Or do I just walk through because she’s equally a person, therefore she can open her own flipping door, she can open her own seat? Or do I be romantic and pull her seat back? You know, should she stay home and take care of the kids? Or should she have a career?” And these guys start going down this rabbit hole, and it’s just crazy because they just don’t know how to be.
Chris 3:48
It’s true, and it’s crazy. The conversations I have with guys are exactly that—they’re confused. They don’t know how to show up. But the conversations I have with women are so interesting because, for me, what I’ve heard is they want that. They want those doors opened, right? They want that masculine to lead. They don’t want to have to make every decision because they’re playing that role when they’re out working, right? And that’s where I think we’re—because I know you are married to a very powerful woman. I am married to a very powerful woman. And those are really, really difficult relationships because they are playing that role in masculinity. They come home, and how are they going to unravel? How are they going to be back to who they generally want to be, right? And that’s our role—to do that.
Doug Holt 4:35
I think it’s also true for stay-at-home women. So my wife—as a lot of guys who have listened to this show for a while know—she coaches women. I mean, that’s what she does professionally, when she works. And what she would tell you is 100%—and she’s very emphatic about that—100% of women out there want to be able to surrender into their feminine, and they don’t know how. Yeah. And so they’re looking for the man to lead. Look, we just got back from vacation—this is not anyway. We got back from vacation. We went to Europe with the family. I was already over there running an event in Prague, and so I flew my family over to do a family vacation. And I planned everything. I planned where we’re staying, where we’re going, transportation, restaurants, the whole thing. And my wife just completely melted. She was like, “This was…” She was all in her feminine. She could just be free, wild, and it was an amazing experience.
And I think what men don’t get is when a woman’s in her masculine, it’s hard for her to be intimate, too. And so she has to surrender into her femininity to truly be intimate. Will she have sex with you just mechanically? Sure. But not that passion. All the guys that we work with—that’s not what they want. They want passion. They want intimacy. They want their woman to want to make love to them and have great sex.
Chris 5:52
Yeah, I think when we realize how to do that, how we show up, yeah, and we see them melt, it is one of the most beautiful experiences we can have in our relationships.
Doug Holt 6:04
You feel more like a man than ever when your woman melts into you. And the word I want to use—and my wife will use this too—is she surrenders into me, right? And I have complete control, not from a dominant standpoint, but it could be, right? But she is basically surrendering control, her love, her compassion—all into me. She’s pouring into me like, “I trust you. You got this. You got me.”
Chris 6:28
It’s the perfect example of you led with your heart, and she felt that, right? And it’s just… yeah. It’s amazing to watch them just fall into that. And the appreciation they have is just unreal.
Doug Holt 6:40
You talked about devolving, right? And we’ll go into the women too—about them, which way they’re going, so to speak. And why I use the word “devolve”—it’s just a random word. But yeah, I’m sure you’ve read Dr. Glover’s book, which is a famous book, No More Mr. Nice Guy, right? And so that book, for me, when I read it, it was more of like, “Okay, this guy’s painting the whole picture of Doug 1.0, right? You know, now what do I do?” Right? And that’s where TPM, I think, comes in. He’s painting this picture of how men, we don’t know what we’re supposed to do, so we think, “Okay, my wife’s not happy, so how can I make her happy? How can I show her that I’m such a great guy? How could—” you know, “Everybody else thinks Doug’s amazing. It seems like, why doesn’t she?” We fall into that trap of that nice guy. When women—we talk about this a lot on the show—they want that guy from 50 Shades of Grey, right? There’s a reason that so many millions of copies of that book sold. It’s not because women don’t want it. It’s not because it was just men reading this book. This was a book geared towards women, and these women wanted a strong male presence in their life. And it was a sexual fantasy. It was an emotional fantasy, and those books continue to grow.
Chris 7:57
Oh my God. When that came out, and I heard about it, I bought it because I was like, I need to know what the hell is going on with this, right? Like, why are these women so into this smart man? And I read it, and the simple version is, he made decisions. Yeah, and made her feel safe and made her feel so…
Doug Holt 8:14
…feel safe, yeah. So much so that he could completely dominate her sexually and physically—like, literally be beating her sexually, right? Just S&M-type stuff. But she liked his real emotional dominance, and she could trust him to show up, right? And if I remember the books—I read it later, I wasn’t as smart as you—but when I started figuring it out, I was like, “Wait a minute. Why are, you know, millions upon millions of women reading this?” I can’t think of a time, Chris, where I’ve had a conversation with a woman—someone’s wife, or what have you—that I’ve just brought it up, “Have you ever read 50 Shades of Grey?” and all of them are like, “Yep.”
Chris 8:51
The proof of how popular that book is is showing us how we’re not showing up properly.
Doug Holt 8:57
Right? Yeah. Because if we were showing up that way, there would be no need for a book, no?
Chris 9:02
Because it’d be everyday life. It would. So how do we make our own 50 Shades of Grey in our life?
Doug Holt 9:08
Yeah, I agree. That’s a great question and a good journal prompt for people. And what happens here when I talk to women—like yourself, talking to women—not women like yourself, to make sure that’s clear. But when I talk to women, more often than not, the women feel that if they have to go to work, if that’s what’s going on in the relationship, they feel like they’re always making decisions. They’re always in charge, right? Then, if they bring that energy home and don’t have a decompression routine—which we teach the guys how to help their wives slip into that—if they don’t have that, then they treat their husbands like an employee. They treat them like someone that they have to manage. And then, when the guy shows up as that nice guy, the women tell me constantly, “Doug, I just have another kid. I just have a big kid in the house. Leaves a mess. I have to clean up after him, pick up after him. Do you think that’s sexy?”
Chris 10:03
Well, that’s where we miss it, right? We think we need to start showing up, and so we start becoming these task-doers around the house and being like, “Yeah, she’s tired, so I need to go do the dishes, and now I gotta mow the yard and go paint this stuff, and that’s going to make her happy.” And it has nothing to do… I mean, sure, you’ve got to handle that, right? But it’s not that.
Doug Holt 10:23
Well, you said something that’s really like… I want guys to get the nuance of what you said because I know you said it on purpose. We think we’re doing it to make her happy. So now, when you do that, guys, that’s not love—that’s a transaction, right? That’s like me saying, “Hey, Chris, here’s 20 bucks. Can you now give me coffee?” Right? Like, that’s a transaction. “I’ll do this for you. You do this for me.” And that’s not the relationship we want to be in. That’s a level two relationship, not level three.
Chris 10:52
And that’s where the resentment comes. And that’s where the marriage becomes a death of a thousand paper cuts because you just keep repeating that cycle, and things slowly get worse. And that’s the scary part—you don’t recognize it because it’s not this big explosion, right? It’s very slowly tearing you apart, the relationship apart.
Doug Holt 11:13
100%. And unfortunately, you know the stats: 50% of marriages end in divorce. Of those, 70% are initiated by the woman. It goes to 90% if she’s got a college degree or higher. Think about that—90%. And so what tends to happen is us guys trying to survive off “hopium,” right? We just hope it’ll get better. “All right, if I find a way to go to sleep tonight without staying up worrying, maybe it’ll be better tomorrow. Maybe it’ll be better tomorrow.” Meanwhile, the woman is festering in this like, “When is he going to show up?” Because one thing I also talk to women about is, when your woman marries you, she sees the man you could be. She’s an investor. Like, we’re buying now, right? We’re in the market.
Chris 12:03
Hope you bought Bitcoin.
Doug Holt 12:06
She is buying, right? What she sees 20 years from now—who can this man become? And guys, when we fall short, that’s when they get pissed off and irritated. And some of the women literally—and you can see it—there’s a testimonial from a couple that’s on our site. When I went to go visit the men and the women—in fact, I stopped by and said hi to you on that journey—the women said, “Hey, you know, I’m a Christian. Divorce is off the table, and I thought I just had to live this life of quiet desperation. This is my station in life. God has chosen, for whatever reason, that I’m going to be in a passionless marriage, and I’m just gonna have to suck it up and do what I need to do.” And then this gentleman went through the program and, you know, changed everything.
Chris 5:52
Yeah, I think when we realize how to do that, how we show up, yeah, and we see them melt, it is one of the most beautiful experiences we can have in our relationships.
Doug Holt 6:04
You feel more like a man than ever when your woman melts into you. And the word I want to use—and my wife will use this too—is she surrenders into me, right? And I have complete control, not from a dominant standpoint, but it could be, right? But she is basically surrendering control, her love, her compassion—all into me. She’s pouring into me like, “I trust you. You got this. You got me.”
Chris 6:28
It’s the perfect example of you led with your heart, and she felt that, right? And it’s just… yeah. It’s amazing to watch them just fall into that. And the appreciation they have is just unreal.
Doug Holt 6:40
You talked about devolving, right? And we’ll go into the women too—about them, which way they’re going, so to speak. And why I use the word “devolve”—it’s just a random word. But yeah, I’m sure you’ve read Dr. Glover’s book, which is a famous book, No More Mr. Nice Guy, right? And so that book, for me, when I read it, it was more of like, “Okay, this guy’s painting the whole picture of Doug 1.0, right? You know, now what do I do?” Right? And that’s where TPM, I think, comes in. He’s painting this picture of how men, we don’t know what we’re supposed to do, so we think, “Okay, my wife’s not happy, so how can I make her happy? How can I show her that I’m such a great guy? How could—” you know, “Everybody else thinks Doug’s amazing. It seems like, why doesn’t she?” We fall into that trap of that nice guy. When women—we talk about this a lot on the show—they want that guy from 50 Shades of Grey, right? There’s a reason that so many millions of copies of that book sold. It’s not because women don’t want it. It’s not because it was just men reading this book. This was a book geared towards women, and these women wanted a strong male presence in their life. And it was a sexual fantasy. It was an emotional fantasy, and those books continue to grow.
Chris 7:57
Oh my God. When that came out, and I heard about it, I bought it because I was like, I need to know what the hell is going on with this, right? Like, why are these women so into this smart man? And I read it, and the simple version is, he made decisions. Yeah, and made her feel safe and made her feel so…
Doug Holt 8:14
…feel safe, yeah. So much so that he could completely dominate her sexually and physically—like, literally be beating her sexually, right? Just S&M-type stuff. But she liked his real emotional dominance, and she could trust him to show up, right? And if I remember the books—I read it later, I wasn’t as smart as you—but when I started figuring it out, I was like, “Wait a minute. Why are, you know, millions upon millions of women reading this?” I can’t think of a time, Chris, where I’ve had a conversation with a woman—someone’s wife, or what have you—that I’ve just brought it up, “Have you ever read 50 Shades of Grey?” and all of them are like, “Yep.”
Chris 8:51
The proof of how popular that book is is showing us how we’re not showing up properly.
Doug Holt 8:57
Right? Yeah. Because if we were showing up that way, there would be no need for a book, no?
Chris 9:02
Because it’d be everyday life. It would. So how do we make our own 50 Shades of Grey in our life?
Doug Holt 9:08
Yeah, I agree. That’s a great question and a good journal prompt for people. And what happens here when I talk to women—like yourself, talking to women—not women like yourself, to make sure that’s clear. But when I talk to women, more often than not, the women feel that if they have to go to work, if that’s what’s going on in the relationship, they feel like they’re always making decisions. They’re always in charge, right? Then, if they bring that energy home and don’t have a decompression routine—which we teach the guys how to help their wives slip into that—if they don’t have that, then they treat their husbands like an employee. They treat them like someone that they have to manage. And then, when the guy shows up as that nice guy, the women tell me constantly, “Doug, I just have another kid. I just have a big kid in the house. Leaves a mess. I have to clean up after him, pick up after him. Do you think that’s sexy?”
Chris 10:03
Well, that’s where we miss it, right? We think we need to start showing up, and so we start becoming these task-doers around the house and being like, “Yeah, she’s tired, so I need to go do the dishes, and now I gotta mow the yard and go paint this stuff, and that’s going to make her happy.” And it has nothing to do… I mean, sure, you’ve got to handle that, right? But it’s not that.
Doug Holt 10:23
Well, you said something that’s really like… I want guys to get the nuance of what you said because I know you said it on purpose. We think we’re doing it to make her happy. So now, when you do that, guys, that’s not love—that’s a transaction, right? That’s like me saying, “Hey, Chris, here’s 20 bucks. Can you now give me coffee?” Right? Like, that’s a transaction. “I’ll do this for you. You do this for me.” And that’s not the relationship we want to be in. That’s a level two relationship, not level three.
Chris 10:52
And that’s where the resentment comes. And that’s where the marriage becomes a death of a thousand paper cuts because you just keep repeating that cycle, and things slowly get worse. And that’s the scary part—you don’t recognize it because it’s not this big explosion, right? It’s very slowly tearing you apart, the relationship apart.
Doug Holt 11:13
100%. And unfortunately, you know the stats: 50% of marriages end in divorce. Of those, 70% are initiated by the woman. It goes to 90% if she’s got a college degree or higher. Think about that—90%. And so what tends to happen is us guys trying to survive off “hopium,” right? We just hope it’ll get better. “All right, if I find a way to go to sleep tonight without staying up worrying, maybe it’ll be better tomorrow. Maybe it’ll be better tomorrow.” Meanwhile, the woman is festering in this like, “When is he going to show up?” Because one thing I also talk to women about is, when your woman marries you, she sees the man you could be. She’s an investor. Like, we’re buying now, right? We’re in the market.
Chris 12:03
Hope you bought Bitcoin.
Doug Holt 12:06
She is buying, right? What she sees 20 years from now—who can this man become? And guys, when we fall short, that’s when they get pissed off and irritated. And some of the women literally—and you can see it—there’s a testimonial from a couple that’s on our site. When I went to go visit the men and the women—in fact, I stopped by and said hi to you on that journey—the women said, “Hey, you know, I’m a ChristHere’s the transcription with corrected punctuation and capitalization:
Chris 12:49
Yeah, I think there are so many relationships out there right now where the passion left a long time ago, and they’re just in the cycle now. There’s children, there’s this life… and to get that back, I think each person is kind of looking at the other to fix it. A lot of times it is, but it truly is our role to step into that space and take that lead, you know?
Doug Holt 13:11
The irony is, this is where most men—certainly men listening to this show—feel the most natural, in the leadership role. Now, the gears might be a little squeaky, right, because you haven’t done it in a long time, especially with the woman you’re doing it with. But most men that come to TPM are naturally leaders. They’re naturally masculine men, and along the way, they’ve lost it because society has told them, “No, you can’t be a powerful, strong person.” And—and I’m talking about inner power again. Guys, physical power is great too, but this is not giving a man a license to be a dick. Like, that’s the opposite of what we teach. But now they’re like, “How do you reclaim yourself? What do you like to do for fun? How often do you go out with the guys? How often do you connect with other men? How often… do you have to go ask for permission for everything you do in your house?” Like, all of these things that men have forgotten.
A, your wife wants you to lead, right? But we stopped. B, at what point do you realize this is your life too? This is not just her life or just your shared life. This is also your life, and you get to reclaim parts of that. And when men do that, Chris, I’ve seen this 1,000 times, if not more—their woman is happier. That’s the irony. He’s happier. I go, “How do you feel?” He’s like, “Dude, this feels natural.” Like, yeah, because it is. This is who you really are. This is probably the way you were when you first started dating. And then you had either the hormadonna complex or whatever—something happened—where you were convinced, and society is usually the culprit, but you were convinced that what you needed to be was a nice husband, a nice guy, and that was the way to do it.
Chris 14:54
Yeah. I mean, culturally, we were taught to put our priorities aside, to show up for your family, for your wife, for your kids, right? And it’s like the reverse. It’s the complete opposite. And I see this all the time.
Doug Holt 15:09
Yeah. I’ll go to the coal mine. Don’t shut up. I won’t say a word. I’ll come home, eat dinner, you know, turn the TV on, or what have you. Stiff upper lip. Bite my tongue. You know, won’t say anything.
Chris 15:22
I did a shoutout on one of my posts just thanking those men that do go out there and do those jobs that are so strenuous, so difficult, sometimes dangerous, just to provide. But if they… and some of them just need to have that little bit of time to show up for themselves because they’re giving so much of themselves away.
Doug Holt 15:42
Yeah. That’s what I mean. This is what happened to me, right? I felt like I was that guy. My job wasn’t dangerous. I was working three jobs. I was just working my tail off to provide what I thought was necessary for my family. And during that time, I was just getting run down, like, you know, sleeping four hours a night, maybe taking sleeping pills when I had to, until my body just completely crashed. You know, I always got injured. Something happened to my body. I completely crashed. Or if I took time off, I got sick every time. Always did. My story—surprisingly, it’s probably a lot of guys’ stories, but I thought I was unique. Right? Snowflake over here. So I would do that. And then when I was completely—during this, I would take care of everybody.
“Oh, my wife’s tired. I’ll take care of the dishes,” even though I was working my butt off. “Oh, you need something? I’ll get it. Oh, I got you.” A buddy would call up, “Hey, I’m moving.” First guy there. “Let’s go. I’ll pick it up,” even though I had nothing in me. Then you fall down, and you’re just like—you’re sick, you’re depleted, you’re stressed, you got nothing to give. And who’s around? Yeah, nobody.
Chris 16:46
Your tank’s empty. You’re alone, you’re resentful, and you…
Doug Holt 16:50
…become a dick, right? You become a dick, and you’re mad because you’re like, “Where is everybody? I’ve been taking care of all these people, and where’s somebody to come here and take care of me?” And they don’t show up. And they don’t show up not because they don’t want to, but because your tank is empty, and you’re a dick at that point. And so then you get resentful, then they get angry, and it creates more friction, and it creates a divide. And what do we do? As soon as we feel better, we go double down on it. “I’ll show them how great I am.”
Chris 17:21
“I’m gonna work harder. Yeah, I’ll outwork everybody.”
Doug Holt 17:23
Yeah, I can outwork that next guy. I’ve heard that story from everybody. You get a group of 20 guys in a room: “Raise your hand if you think, you know, if you’ve told yourself, ‘I can outwork the next guy.'” Like, how can 20 of us outwork each other? Doesn’t work that way with one. But yeah. And we get empty, and we do that provider thing.
Oh, also, you got to be vulnerable. Now you got to be vulnerable. But know when to open my car door, but not all the time. And it’s a really interesting flux. And in that scenario, for a lot of relationships, it becomes passionless. Then it becomes sexless. Or even worse than sexless, what I’ve been told by the guys—I haven’t been in this situation—but women will have sex with a man out of obligation. And the guy knows it, and sometimes she’ll tell him. And they’re like, “Man, Doug, I wish I would have just masturbated or something else. You know, it would’ve been easier and better because I just feel so hollow when this happens.”
Hey guys, I wanted to interrupt this episode because it’s dawned on me that many of you aren’t aware that we actually have a book on How to Save Your Marriage Without Talking About It. Now, thousands of men have read it, they’ve reviewed it, and I want to give you the opportunity to do the same. If you’re interested in grabbing it, it’s a short read, but it’s helped a lot of men just like you. And maybe you’re not interested in The Activation Method yet, but this is a small entry point that can really turn things around for you. Go over to Amazon. We have it priced as cheap as Amazon will let us, and that way, you have a resource that you can use right now to start getting some results in your marriage. Now let’s get back to the episode.
Chris 18:57
Guilt, shame—like all that stuff—starts piling up on that. That’s not what you want. Nobody wants it.
Doug Holt 19:02
Well, yeah. I mean, you know, she’s doing it out of obligation, not out of love or interest, and it’s just not what guys want. So we’ve talked about this topic, and then for women on the other side, right? They’re expected to raise the kids, be the perfect mom, go to work, earn some money because they’re educated women now, then come home. They’re still expected to cook dinner and clean the house, but their husband is supposed to do it too. And they still have to have the perfect home. All of these things are getting piled on them. Then the man’s got all the stuff piled on him, and now they’re not talking. So the resentment builds up, and they just keep missing each other.
Chris 19:40
And then you’re in that cycle, that loop, just looping until somebody finally says, “I’m done. I can’t do this anymore.”
Doug Holt 19:46
Yeah. “I deserve better.”
Chris 19:48
“I deserve better.”
Doug Holt 19:49
“I want more.” Yeah. Another common thing men say coming through the program—especially at the Alpha Reset—is, “If men get a chance to come to an Alpha Reset, which is hard to get into simply because we don’t have enough quality coaches like yourself to lead them,” they’ll be like, “Oh my gosh, my wife has been telling me this for years. No wonder she’s upset.”
Chris 20:14
I think that’s a whole other podcast about how we’re not listening, right? Because we’re instantly trying to fix, and we just need to slow that process down.
Doug Holt 20:24
Well, and also give men credit, because we’re not listening. And just like we teach men how to communicate with women, there’s not really a program out there for women to communicate with men. And so what we do as leaders is we take, to your point, the first step, and that changes everything. I don’t know about you, but when I started to change, suddenly and miraculously, everybody else in my life was changing. It was crazy. It was like, all of a sudden, these people that I was resenting and had all these stories about—when I started showing up differently, either my perception changed, or they actually started following that lead of who that guy is.
Chris 21:03
Yeah, reframing that—that’s beautiful.
Doug Holt 21:07
Yeah, reframing. But also, people are a reflection of the energy you put out, right? And when you’re in a better place, where you’re grounded, you feel more secure. Now you’re no longer seeking validation from everybody. And validation is another word for being needy in a relationship. So if you’re not constantly going to your wife like, “Validate me. Value me. I’m a good guy. I’m a good husband. Tell me. Tell me I’m a good boy,” now you start to become more attractive to her. Ironically, as soon as you don’t need her, you become more attractive.
This is what happens when we date. When we’re just dating, we don’t need the woman we’re dating, because we can go date somebody else. But for some reason, we get married and the ring goes on our finger, and all of a sudden we need that person to be our everything. And that’s not fair. The whole representation—or the ask—of your wife to be your best friend, your lover, to clean the house, take care of you, your confidant in business—all of those things. That’s an unfair expectation.
Chris 22:02
Well, and when you’re just need, need, need, now you are the child in the house.
Doug Holt 22:07
Yes, that’s exactly what it is.
Chris 22:09
That’s more than she wants to deal with, because she doesn’t just want a partner. She needs someone that can support her. And so you have to do that work sometimes outside of the house, right? It can’t be there. You can’t expect her to handle all of your problems and your shit—and hers.
Doug Holt 22:26
That’s what we advise the guys: find a group of men that you can confide in and talk to. Don’t bring all this and pile it on your wife. A lot of guys just do that. They vomit all their problems onto their partner, and that’s just not sexy, man. That’s just not a sexy thing. I know I at least thought, Chris, like, “Okay, she’s supposed to be my best friend. I need to share all of this stuff with her.”
Chris 22:48
Well, they ask us to be vulnerable. And so we’re like, “Well, here’s the blah, blah, blah,” vomit on them, right? But the other part is, we aren’t culturally designed to communicate deeply with another man. So of course, we’re going to do that to them, because they’re probably the only ones we’ve been taught to be vulnerable with, right? But we need to start having deeper conversations about our needs and wants with men we trust to help that communication. I think when that happens, we become better in our relationship, because we’re practicing outside of this one person, and we’re not laying all of our shit on them.
Doug Holt 23:24
No, there’s no need to. And also, men and women communicate differently, right? You know about collecting berries, right? And so when we do the “berry dumping” onto our wives, she’s not ready for it. That’s not what she wants. She has her leader, her man. The way that we guys do it—because guys don’t do it eloquently until they learn how to do it properly, right? And it’s a skill. It’s a learned skill, which is great if you’re willing to learn it. But I wasn’t taught it. You probably weren’t taught it. The guys listening to this definitely weren’t taught it either. It’s just not something that’s normal in society.
And to your point, there’s a risk if I share this with another guy, right? If I go down to the pub or the gym and say, “Hey, man, this is what’s going on in my world,” there’s a risk he could reject me, look at me as weaker. This is a natural, inherent risk, unless you’re with men who are also willing to take that jump with you. Then, all of a sudden, you have a bond. Like, “Okay, this is a safe—quote, safe—space. Now I can share this with people and get feedback.” And not all the feedback is positive. But t’s true and honest.
Chris 24:31
Yeah. I mean, how many times do you say, “Hey, Doug, how are you doing?” and you get, “I’m doing okay. I’m doing fine.” Those are key indicators that somebody needs to talk right there. So what we have to do sometimes is just go a little deeper. They start opening up, and you start forming that relationship, right?
Doug Holt 24:46
Yeah, and sometimes you have to share first. That’s leadership. And all the men here listening to this podcast—I would guess we have a lot of women listening to this too—but all the men want to be leaders or think of themselves as leaders. What does a leader do? They lead by going first. That’s the best leader. You don’t trust a guy that’s going to go, “Hey, go into that burning building, but I’m not going,” right?
Yeah, we don’t celebrate those guys. We celebrate the guy who is a leader and goes in first. He may say, “Come with me so we can do something,” but he’s willing to also go in there and do that. I think about the people I’ve worked with in my life, and I’ve been fortunate enough to coach and work with some extremely wealthy individuals. I will tell you what—the people that I’ve worked with, who have built themselves from the ground up and made massive amounts of wealth, they’re generally the first guys to go, “Okay, I’ll clean the toilet,” right? They’ll do the “dirty work” because they don’t look at it that way. They just do it. If I’m going to ask someone to do something, I’m also willing to do it, at some stage of life.
Chris 25:51
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you have to. That’s true leadership—being open, vulnerable, and stepping into that space maybe first, so you help other people get there.
Doug Holt 25:58
Yeah, it reminds me of a guy here. We’ll call him a ranch hand. It’s a big ranch—there’s lots to be done. He used to work on superyachts all over the world before this. And I was doing a project on the ranch—I can’t remember what it was—and he was just smiling. And I’m like, “All right…” and I didn’t know him as well at the time because I was new. And I’m like, “What is this guy smiling about?” So finally, I just ask, “Hey, are you okay?” And he’s like, “I’ve never worked with someone who owns something that actually works.” He’s like, “This is really relieving.” But that’s what it is, right? For him, it was like, “Okay, cool. I’m happy to do this job because you and everybody else that comes here are willing to get their hands dirty.”
Chris 26:40
Yeah, I’ve cleaned a lot of toilets in the last couple years myself.
Doug Holt 26:45
Well, I mean, that’s the job, right? And we need to do this in our own homes too. I remember having this conversation in my head: “My wife’s not doing enough at home.” So my wife’s a stay-at-home mom. She coaches clients when she wants to. She has the choice to do it basically, is what it comes down to. And I remember going, “Why am I doing the dishes? She’s got all day.” You know, that whole story. I slip into my stick man, just like everybody else does. And then I go, “Doug, if you were single, would you be doing dishes?” Yep. “So quit your bitching and moaning and empty the dishwasher,” right?
Chris 27:32
Reality check.
Doug Holt 27:33
Ah, total reality check.
Chris 27:34
The stories we make up in our darker times.
Doug Holt 27:36
Yeah, it’s about keeping that ego in check, right?
Chris 27:40
Yeah, humbling yourself is something we all have to work on pretty consistently, right?
Doug Holt 27:45
Yeah, and so when we talk back to the subject of men devolving, right—going back to being the prototypical 1950s masculine man—and women, who were the prototypical 1950s stay-at-home moms baking cookies… You know, I’m kind of thinking of a Leave It to Beaver type family. And how women have been forced, in some ways, through society, to become more masculine and take over jobs and lead the family. Men have been forced to do the opposite role by society’s standards. And now we’re missing each other, and the polarity is completely off.
Chris 28:44
Yeah, women are making all those decisions, and they’re coming home, and because they’re doing that, we’re letting them. Like, we’re not stepping up because they’re handling it. And the next thing, we think, “Oh, I can go work on my job. I can focus on what I’m doing because she’s handling all that.” And that’s such a mess right there—huge. And then you’ve got just two masculine energies bouncing off of each other, like two magnets being flipped and pushed away.
Doug Holt 29:09
Whenever I get in that situation, it’s like, “Okay, we’re either fighting, or one of us is walking away.” So let’s give the guys who listen to this a couple of things they can walk away with. Maybe we’ll do two each, bounce back and forth. What’s something a guy could do if he’s like, “Okay, crap, I’m in this situation where I think I’ve stepped back societally and taken on a less traditional masculine role, but it feels right for me to step into it, and my wife has become a little more masculine?” What’s something he can do?
Chris 29:39
Two things come to mind. First, make some time for yourself. Fill that cup so you have the energy to show up, right? Go do something you enjoy. And the second one would probably be to just start making some decisions. Simple ones, like date night. Plan the dinner. Pre-order the dinner. Just start making decisions.
Doug Holt 30:05
Love it. Those are two great ones. I’ll add on to that. One is, “Iron sharpens iron.” Find a group of like-minded men. Men listening to this show would be a good example, but also find like-minded men online, in your community, wherever you feel the most comfortable. Surround yourself with other guys who align with your values. I remember first grade—I’ve talked about this before—I couldn’t tell you who my first-grade teacher was, but I remember a sign, one of those cutouts teachers have, that said, “Birds of a feather flock together, so choose your friends wisely.” I made fun of that sign, but now I believe it fully. You’re the product of the people you spend the most time with.
The second thing is to read Dr. Glover’s book and see if it relates to you. I think that’s a great book. Are you a nice guy? Have you become a nice guy? Don’t beat yourself up. That’s probably what I would’ve done. But don’t beat yourself up for being a nice guy. Just kind of go, “Okay, I went down this path. What’s the next corrective path I should take?”
Chris 31:12
Yeah, that book really highlights exactly what we’re talking about.
Doug Holt 31:15
100%. And he even says in the book, “Find a group of men. Find a group of like-minded men.” That’s one of the best ways to grow together, and I think he’s right.
Chris 31:27
I agree with that.
Doug Holt 31:28
Thanks for bringing this topic to the table, man. Always good.
Chris 31:30
Thanks for having me, man.
Doug Holt 31:32
You got it. Gentlemen, as we always say, in the moment of insight, take massive action. Go do something for yourself, like Chris says. Also, make a decision. Be decisive. When you were dating, you probably planned a date night or two with your current wife or partner. Do that now. Make sure that’s back in your life. And then, if you’ve got a couple spare bucks, get Dr. Glover’s book. It’s probably nine or ten bucks on Amazon. Grab that, or go to your local library and check it out. It’s on Audible too, so you have no excuse. Get that book and just flip through it. If it resonates with you and you think, “Wow, that’s me,” like I said back in the day, then take some action.
Don’t just live a life of quiet desperation. You deserve more than average. Average is for the other guy—not you. This is your one shot at this game we call life. So take some massive action. I’m in your corner, and I’ll see you next time on The Powerful Man Show.
