Episode #1166
Shame has a way of shaping how you see yourself without you even realizing it. It can show up as feeling like you're not good enough, constantly chasing success to prove your worth, avoiding difficult conversations, or believing you have to keep everything bottled up.
In this episode, Tim Matthews and Lawrence Davis unpack where shame comes from, why it quietly drives so many men, and what it actually takes to move past it. They talk about the difference between shame and guilt, how childhood experiences influence the way we show up in relationships, why acceptance is the first step toward lasting change, and how surrounding yourself with the right people can completely change your perspective.
They also share personal stories about difficult conversations with family, setting healthy boundaries, letting go of old beliefs, and finding the courage to be seen for who you really are. If you've ever felt like you're carrying something that's keeping you stuck, this conversation will help you understand where it comes from and give you practical ways to start moving forward.
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Lawrence 0:00
"I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy."
Tim Matthews 0:01
Super pervasive and difficult to get rid of.
Lawrence 0:04
It's that kind of othering of yourself.
Tim Matthews 0:07
To get rid of shame, you have to reach a point of acceptance.
Lawrence 0:10
It will grow through concrete. It will break concrete up.
Tim Matthews 0:13
...Because you are now connected. You have a foundation of peace. Peace is the foundation of power clean power.
Lawrence 0:18
Remove yourself from those groups, if that's possible.
Tim Matthews 0:21
A big piece of it is to release shame... you know, allow a guy to be fully seen.
Lawrence 0:24
She's your queen. You're the king.
Tim Matthews 0:26
I love that. Life is too short to be average.
Tim Matthews 0:41
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of The TPM Show. My name's Tim Matthews. I am your host, and I am joined by the wonderful Mr. Lawrence Davis, also known as Wildcard.
Lawrence 0:51
That's right. Thank you very much, Tim. It's wonderful to be here.
Tim Matthews 0:54
Well, do you know it's becoming quite a regular thing, isn't it? I love it. I love getting to hang out with you.
Lawrence 1:00
Me too.
Tim Matthews 1:00
It's awesome. For those of you that don't know, so Lawrence has been in the movement now for how many years?
Lawrence 1:06
Just over four, coming up to the fifth year, actually, now, yeah.
Tim Matthews 1:09
Yeah. So I think over the past couple of months, you've done quite a few episodes, so we won't dive into your story a great deal. But if you guys are curious, you can always go back, check out some previous episodes with Lawrence. The guys in the community are loving them.
Lawrence 1:24
Good.
Tim Matthews 1:24
Every time they get shared, there are a lot of positive comments, positive feedback, and yeah... it was a big deal for you when you first started doing these, so I love how...
Lawrence 1:36
Very nervous.
Tim Matthews 1:37
Yeah. I love how confident you are so much so, you have a topic for us!
Lawrence 1:39
I do. I thought I would bring a topic for you. I mean, I love everything we discuss, obviously, but something that's been coming up for me recently is around the idea of shame and how powerful that emotion is. So I thought maybe a good idea to talk about about that today. And you kindly accepted my suggestion. So, yeah.
Tim Matthews 1:57
Let's do it.
Lawrence 1:58
Okay, right. Well, really, it's a secret that I'm trying to find from you. What is shame? No, but I would be interested in your your view of what shame is and where it comes from, just to get a start.
Tim Matthews 2:10
Where it comes from... that's a that's a bigger question. But I mean, I always like the distinction between shame and guilt. Guilt is: "I did something wrong." Shame is: "I am wrong." Right?
And depending on what you experienced as a kid, depending on your family of origin... there's a lot of research now coming out around intergenerational trauma and the genes that we can carry and all that stuff... it can really influence the beliefs that you form about yourself.
And I think, at least the men that we work with, I think shame has become such a powerful motivator for them. Because oftentimes, when I'll just speak to the guys we work with I think as they go through their entrepreneurial journey, I think a big piece of what drives them is the need for them to get away from pain. And typically, the pain that they're experiencing is the feeling of inadequacy ultimately, "I'm not good enough," which is kind of a shameful belief, right? "I am wrong. I'm not good enough." All that kind of thing.
And the men often find themselves asking the question, "What's wrong with me?" You know, when they can't fix things in the marriage, or they go through feast-to-famine in the business. Because even though they might be financially successful, they can also have a habit of creating chaos in the companies, right? Because when they create chaos, they have to swoop in and be the hero, and you know, all the kind of stuff that goes with it.
But equally, it can still lead them thinking, "What's wrong with me?" And this is all subconscious. But if you ask the mind a question like that, the mind is going to find an answer to that question and show you all the ways in which things are wrong with you whether it could be around your body, whether it could be around your sexual performance, whether it could be around the size of a particular sexual object that you have on your body... it can be all sorts of different things. And shame... it can be a very pervasive thing. Shame... are you familiar with Japanese knotweed?
Lawrence 4:42
Yes, yeah. Very familiar.
Tim Matthews 4:44
Yeah. So Japanese knotweed is a type of weed that once it takes hold and takes root, it can spread. And a few years ago, in fact, Amila and I were looking to buy a house where we live and not the house we bought, but in the area and the house had Japanese knotweed. And it was really difficult for them to sell it because once that Japanese knotweed takes hold, it's super pervasive and difficult to get rid of. It spreads everywhere. Shame's kind of similar.
Lawrence 5:16
Yeah, love that.
Tim Matthews 5:18
Shame's kind of similar, and if you're not careful, you can very easily fall victim to it. Because as I was saying a moment ago, I think for a lot of the guys that come to us, they're very much driven by pain. They need to get away from their inadequacy, which essentially is shame. And I think as a kid, they're internalizing their shame, and that's where it can turn into toxic shame.
And I think that's where, you know, toxic masculinity and all that stuff... it all just comes from a hurt place, doesn't it? It's not a healthy place. And I think within that that internalization they can internalize the idea and the feeling that they are not enough. So it becomes an identity. And therefore, when they start to get success financial success they can also internalize that, too. So they go from "I'm a failure," which is very shame-based, to "I'm successful."
Yeah, but it's still kind of coming from that shameful place, yeah. And then when they think and believe that they are successful because of the material things they've been able to provide and the balance of their bank account, they cannot wrap their head around it when the people around them don't treat them in alignment with how they think they should be treated because they are successful. Yeah, and it creates this dissonance.
But the reality is, they're completely disregarding who it is they are being in those moments that matter to the people they matter to... the people that matter most to them, right? So there's still this undercurrent of shame going on.
For me, the opposite of... to get rid of shame, you have to reach a point of acceptance accepting yourself. Or let's say, you know, like the idea of knotweed: the shame is pervasive; it goes towards your body image and the size of your cock and your sexual performance, and there's just so much comparison that comes in, right? And the opposite of that is acceptance for your body, acceptance for what you want in the bedroom, or, yeah, your need and desire to be touched, or the cock you were born with, or whatever it may be.
Right, the acceptance piece around that leads to the can lead to the integration and wholeness... that feeling of wholeness. And it's very... I don't see how shame and wholeness can both exist in the same place. Because it's kind of like daylight and nighttime. You know, it's either daylight or it's nighttime. So if you've got wholeness... I understand the whole yin and yang of the of the world, so I guess it could still be there to a degree, but the predominant emotion that you would live with would be one of peace, contentment...
Lawrence 8:20
Yeah, joy... no room for shame in that. Yeah.
Tim Matthews 8:22
Yes! Abundance, wholeness. Yeah, you may have some insecurities that come up at times, but you're not going to be driven unconsciously by the pervasive feeling of "I am wrong. Something is wrong with me. I am fundamentally flawed." And no matter what I do, or no matter what I earn or what I create, I can't outrun this feeling that I somehow am fundamentally flawed.
And when that's running the show, and you then look for the evidence to prove yourself to be right, it's it's it's just a sad, sad existence. It's lonely. It can feel like nobody understands. It can feel like there is no way out. It can feel dark. It can feel... well, I think this is a big piece why a lot of guys commit suicide. It's because of the shame that they are living with, and the feeling that nobody else gets it, and the idea that they cannot get away from it, no matter what they do. And ultimately, they end up causing the people they love pain because of the actions that they take, which further just perpetuates a cycle.
We talk a lot about the Five Agonies in TPM, right? The first agony is Greed it's a feeling that no matter what you have, it's never enough. The second agony is Anger, because you start to get annoyed and frustrated because you can't solve the problem. The third agony is then Shame, because then you start to lash out on the people you love. You say things you don't mean. You do things you don't mean. And it's really hurtful to them and to you, which leads to the fourth agony of Loneliness. "Well, maybe it's easier if I'm just not around." So you start to peel away and avoid people and isolate, which leads to the fifth agony of Uncertainty. "Well, this can't continue. Which domino is going to fall first? Is it going to be your health, your business, your marriage, you?"
But equally, there's the opposite of that, which is the Five Virtues, which the men go on to experience. The first virtue is Presence. You know, once you've made the transition from No Man's Land which is where the Five Agonies live, where you're living from the inside... sorry, from the outside in, right? Going into DEER mode the entire time and you're able to make that transition to the inside out, where you, the wolf, rises up, loving and fierce, and you're enjoying the Five Virtues.
The first virtue you have to go through is Presence. You need to get present with your experience stop trying to outwork it, outrun it, out-drink it, whatever it may be and just get to that acceptance piece, yeah? Accept what's there.
Which can then lead to the second virtue of Peace, because you start to get present with what's going on, and you're able to begin processing it rather than denying it or whatever it may be. It's in the processing of that whether it's The Alpha Reset that helps you do that, or it's The Activation Method, or it's something else, whatever, right? you then arrive at that foundation of peacefulness. It's essentially that shift from the head to the heart, which then leads to the third virtue of Power. Power is is self-authorship, because you are now connected. You have a foundation of peace. Peace is the foundation of power... clean power. Anyway, the ability to say, "This is who I am. This is what I want. This is where I'm going. I'm going to do it with love."
Which then leads to the fourth virtue of Passion. Passion starts to flow back into your life. You start to enjoy life again because you're reconnected to yourself and doing the things you enjoy and doing the things you love and doing it from a great place. And it's constructive versus destructive.
Which finally leads to the fifth virtue of Purpose. When you start to follow what you love, the purpose will reveal itself. And that's the journey you've seen a lot of guys go on; I've seen a lot of guys go on. But the shame piece... and that's the wholeness piece, the Five Virtues, inside-out. That's more of an integrated way of being, you know, living, yeah... the wholeness piece. Whereas I'd say, well, shame is one of the agonies
Lawrence 12:41
Yeah, I think people get stuck on on the shame quite a lot. When you when you look at those emotional... the charts of emotions and things, you have joy and and wonderment and all this on one side, and then you have shame is right down the other end.
It's a fundamentally deeply implanted and imparted to you in your youth in your in your childhood, in your youth. And it's it's taking on or your perception of other people's values. So when you don't live up to those values, whether it's your parents or people at work or whatever, you take on their values. You you you... when you realize you're not reaching those values, you start to feel less-than. And exactly what you said, it's that kind of othering of yourself. You kind of push yourself into a "I'm not good enough," "I'm not worthy."
I hate that so many times from the from the men. You know, even I was watching one of the podcasts with one of the guys. You know, when I first met him in the in the movement, I thought, "Wow, what a what a man! Powerful, very big presence and all that." And he was saying on the podcast, "When I first turned up, I just felt like I'm not worthy of... I'm not, you know, I feel like I'm out of my depth with these guys." And it's like... it's incredible that people can feel that no matter what the outward appearance, no matter where they are in their life, they can still feel that deep, deep sense of of shame.
So I think it's... you take on other people's value systems or parts of them, whether they're told to you by your parents, "You must do this, you must do that." And that that goes so deep that, like you say, people continue to to deal with it or try to have to deal with it throughout their lives. And actually, you can. There's ways of there's there's coping mechanisms that the movement have taught me to to deal with shame, because there is there is a way of dealing with it.
And I think your analogy of Japanese knotweed is perfect for this, because that Japanese knotweed, not only is it pervasive, but it will grow through concrete. It will break concrete up. It's so powerful. A tiny little part of it... if when when they come, when they do remediate a site with Japanese knotweed, they have to make sure anything bigger than a few millimeters left in the ground will regerminate and respread it. So when they come to take it apart, you can't just cut it, you know, thrash it apart. You have to lift it out carefully, make sure it doesn't get broken up, you know, put it all away, and make sure the whole site is clear of it, because one little bit left will germinate again.
So, shame, isn't it? It's like the shame will grow back if you don't dig down into the roots and lift it out carefully, examine it, and take your time with it. So, in in thinking about understanding shame and knowing what it is helps you then to think about how you how you can draw away from shame.
And part... a big part of that, I think, is what you were saying about acceptance of who you are and where you are. But I think you can do that piece internally, but if you're still around groups of people whether that's religious groups or family groups or friendship groups who are still... have those... a set of values which you maybe no longer believe, or they are shaming you in some way for being who you are or being in a way a way you are... then one of the the first things... and there's about six or seven that I jotted down, but there's one of the first things I think that you can do is to either remove yourself from those groups, if that's possible difficult with family so you're not around people that are constantly reinforcing that shame: "You're not quite good enough. You're not quite there yet. You're not quite as successful as the rest of the family. You're not quite as mature as you should be at this age," or "You haven't, you know, you haven't achieved a certain goal" or whatever.
So I think part of that, and if you can't entirely remove yourself from that group, then at least setting strong boundaries within that group, you know, and saying, "This is what I will accept. This is where, you know, the places I will go and what I'll talk about." I'm not gonna... I'm not gonna, you know, put myself in a position where I'm gonna allow you to shame me, because then, you know, all of the work you're doing internally is not getting knocked down by another toxic word from your mum or somebody who you hold in high regard saying, you know, saying something that's going to activate you or trigger you.
So I think that's the first thing that I was thinking was maybe having a look at the whole of your life and saying, "Does does my internal... what I truly believe about myself match up with the people that are around me?" And I think creating an environment that you can thrive, and making sure that the people that are around you want... you know, that's that's why the movement's so important. The movement is so great because you're around... you know, you change your environment, and you start to meet guys and you, you know, face-to-face out in in Prague or in Japan, you know, and actually meeting these guys and getting around people who will champion you, support you, and and if and if they do disagree with your value system, they're not going to shame you for that. You know, there's a lot of people from a wide variety of backgrounds in the movement, and they... no one no one is looking down on anyone else. Everyone is on a level, is is equal, and that's, you know, that's a real a real massive value of part of the movement.
So I think, yeah, first thing I would say to help with shame is to get around people who chat who love you and champion you.
Tim Matthews 17:55
I love that. What, you said you got six written down there?
Lawrence 17:57
Yeah, I've got a couple more.
Tim Matthews 17:59
Quickly share the five with me. I'm really curious what they are, and then we can dive into... okay, so I'll share my opinion.
Lawrence 18:04
First one, yeah, is removing yourself from groups, as I said. Second one is joining groups so, again, similar, we've almost pretty much covered that. Third one is journaling, okay, actually allowing yourself to write things down. Third... fourth one is digesting your emotions.
Tim Matthews 18:18
What do you mean by that?
Lawrence 18:19
Working... allowing... and so when shame comes up, journaling helps to write it down and be a bit a bit more objective about it. But then allowing yourself to sit with it, and like digestion, allow it to move through your body, and then ask yourself, "Where is it coming up in my body?" and then removing the waste. You know, you know, deciding what is healthy for you and what's not not healthy for you to hold on to, and allowing the waste to pass through. And I think... so, digesting the emotion, I think, is really important to sit with it and allow yourself to feel the shame, and then as a as an observer, look at, you know, whether that's a story you're telling yourself or or it's something you should act on.
Exposure therapy was the next one: exposing yourself to a little bit of a little bit of the things that you might find shameful. It's a sexual thing, you know, and you think, "Actually, I feel ashamed about wanting oral or anal or some..." you know, some some some sexual act, then, you know, talking to your wife about that, you know, suggesting, you know, something similar or something around that to, you know, and open... having an open conversation and and realizing that you won't die if you talk about that, and it's okay, you're you're in a safe place. So, yeah, disclosing things to other people.
And then the other... what, the last one, which I think is probably the key one, is is stop putting values of good or bad on on the things you do. So, or praise... praise, and you're praising and punishing yourself. Because, like, the shame thing comes into the punishment side. Like, "If I do something wrong, I feel bad, so I punish myself." But actually, if you're constantly pray... or if you praise yourself about good things as well, you know, for being... if you're if you praise yourself for being moral and... then the opposite of that is, "Well, if I'm not, then I'm going to be bad." So taking that good-bad thing off.
So those are the those are the things I had.
Tim Matthews 20:06
Yeah, that last point that was my point about the internalization, right? Because you internalize the toxic piece that drives the guys to be successful, but then they also internalize, "Oh, I'm successful," yeah, because I have these things I can point at. Yet they've got the scorecard a little bit incorrect, yeah. If you were to ask the people they love... because they've often, you know, let certain things go. Shame exists in a vacuum, doesn't it? Like, shame exists in the dark.
Lawrence 20:41
100%.
Tim Matthews 20:43
As as soon as it is spoken about, my experience: it is immediately lessened. Yeah, it doesn't go away just by talking about it. In terms of the whole digestion piece let it move through your body 100%.
I mean, the the reason why we designed The Alpha Reset in the way that it is, really a big piece of it, and if the the emotional journey that a guy goes on through that was to release shame... yeah, that's one of the emotions we want to release. The theme of Day Two is "Release and Reclaim." A big piece of it is to release shame, you know allow a guy to be fully seen.
Obviously, that's after the the first day, which the theme of Day One is "Truth," right? And that's to get to the the truth of what's really been going on for him, as you know. Where has he not been stepping up to that? I won't go through all the questions and all of the experiences we take the men through because, obviously, we don't talk about it. But the point I'm making is: you know what goes on there, right?
So when you talk about digesting shame, having it move through the body, that's a very visceral experience of releasing the shame. Because on the other side of that experience, you have a very visceral experience of acceptance. You don't talk about acceptance. You don't journal about it on your own. You don't try and do some affirmations in a mirror. You don't try and love yourself to death. You have, in three days, yeah, a very visceral experience of being very exposed and also very, very accepted for exactly who you are, without any of the titles. That's it any of the bank balances, any of the masks, whatever it may be.
I think a big piece of why you feel so accepted by the guys in like Japan or Prague or whatever is: the guys can only go to a Brother event if they've been to a Reset. So you've got a bunch of guys 40, 50, 60, however many guys are there who've all gone through an Alpha Reset, who've all gone through this deeply healing and transformational experience, yeah.
I was speaking to a guy on Friday last week. Today is... what day is today? Tuesday.
Lawrence 23:12
Monday.
Tim Matthews 23:12
Holy crap! There we go, it's Monday. Time flies when you're having fun, that's all.
But, yeah, I was speaking to a guy a couple of days ago. He just got back from his Reset, was crying on Zoom to me, saying, "Tim, this literally saved my life. It saved me from me." And he was just... it was incredible. I love those.
I mean, you've been there, you've gone through it, you've volunteered. I would have said exactly the same. And this isn't a plug for the Reset the point I'm making is the whole digestion of of your emotions is spot on. How you do that is key. You can take the slow path or the fast path. The Reset is the accelerated version; other things are still great.
I think the the big thing with The Alpha Reset is it's it's the somatic work in a vulnerable way in front of a group of people. So you're not in your head, you have to be very real and let go of control. And like I said, it's it's in front of a group of people that you've honestly usually never met, at least in person. You may have had some online, you know, connections with them, but you've never met them in person, which makes it even scarier.
So, to your point, actually exposing yourself to coming clean on whatever it is you feel shameful about, and realizing you're not going to die, yeah, it builds like a positivity, yeah. You're like, "Holy crap, I can do this thing! I'm okay." And it then gives you the impetus to then be able to open up about other things.
Right back in the beginning of TPM right at the beginning there were two things I did that actually led to TPM coming about. Because, in essence, TPM came about from me releasing my own shame or beginning to release my own shame and doing it very publicly through social media. This was, God, 10, 11 years ago, I can't remember. But the point is, no one really did it back then. You didn't have guys showing up on social media, being vulnerable and, you know, all the things I was doing.
I didn't do it for that reason. I did it because it's what I was... it's what I felt called to do. I had to get those things out in the open at that point in time.
So one of the things is: I had a conversation with my dad, because I'd realized a big piece of my shame came from my childhood, and the feeling of never being enough. I never felt like whatever I did was enough. And I didn't realize this at the time, you know. I was building businesses and doing well and... but but that they'd reached a point in my life whereby, despite the external success, clearly something wasn't clicking because of various things that were showing up.
So anyway, somebody challenged me to ask my dad if he was proud of me. And they said, "I'll give you seven days." Well, in fact, they laid a trap, because what they first said was, "Are you up for a challenge?" which was like a red rag to a bull, right? So never am I going to say no, so I said yes.
"Right, I'll give you seven days to ask your dad if he's proud of you."
I could feel my stomach turn.
Doug Holt 26:51
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Tim Matthews 27:53
The immediate thing that came out of my mouth was, "Okay." But that tightness in my body it was visceral. It really touched a nerve.
That week was just hell leading up to this. This felt... I I could not believe how difficult this was a grown-ass man, like, going to ask his dad this one simple... it was like I got transported back to being a six-year-old, a seven-year-old. It felt so scary, and, yeah, it felt like my whole life was riding on it, which I know sounds extreme, but the resistance that I had to it...
I left it until the seventh day.
Lawrence 28:40
23 hours!
Tim Matthews 28:40
Why do you find it so funny? I'm just sharing...
Lawrence 28:45
How vulnerable you are right now, and I'm laughing at... I'm laughing because I would do exactly the same thing! I'm right there with you in it.
Tim Matthews 28:52
Yes, it got to the eighth day. Gets even better. "This is fucking stupid. Why is this so hard?"
So I just drove straight around there. Luckily, he was in on my own, because I'm like playing in my head what I'm going to do when I arrive at the house, thinking people are going to be in the house. Walk in the door. When you walk through the front door, you go through the hallway into the kitchen. On the right-hand side is where the counter is, where he would usually be cooking, and that's where he was. Luckily, straight in front of me were the patio doors that's why I walked straight out of them, thanks.
So I'm in the garden walking around, just trying to pluck up the courage, and I go to the patio door to lean in. And every time I go to talk, I have never had a situation in my life where I couldn't get my words out. Yeah, I just... I couldn't believe it. Like, "Why is this so difficult?"
Anyway, eventually, I kind of split the words. I think I blamed it on somebody. "Hey, somebody's asked me to ask you..." So I kind of took it off me a little bit. That still counts, right?
But he was like, "What did you ask?"
I said, "Are you proud of me?"
And he said, "Of course I am. Why?"
I said, "Well, you've never told me."
And I can remember the moment: he just dropped the knife, came from around the counter, sat at the table with me. It was an incredible, incredible conversation kind of like you'd have on a deathbed with a loved one. He just said, "Look, I'm really sorry," and just started sharing all about his upbringing. And luckily, I'd been able to locate one of the key memories where a lot of the shame came from. I told him about that, and he's like, "I don't even remember that day. I'm so sorry. That was never what I thought. It was never my intention."
And it was a really great conversation where we both kind of released one another. Because my part in that for him was, look, I didn't blame him. I didn't say... I let him know how I had allowed that belief to influence me in my life up until that point, and how it had contributed to some of the issues I'd been facing. But I wasn't a victim. I didn't blame him, and I think that really... he really appreciated that because he lowered his guard.
But I also let him know, "Look, I really love you. I know you've always done your best, and I know you've always..." I know he struggles to show love, which he does. But he explained why he struggled to show love, shared his upbringing and what it was like for him growing up with his father, and what his father used to do to him, and how his father used to be with him and his mother. And he had a really, really tough upbringing. So in his eyes, he was doing... he was 10 times the father that his father was.
Yeah, but the point is, that clearing conversation where I got something that I felt was one of the key contributors to my shame out with the person who I felt had contributed to it... and the one piece of advice that I got from the guy that challenged me, he said, "You need to be prepared for him to say no." Which was also a great process in those seven or eight days. Looking back in hindsight, maybe that might have been part of the reason why it was kind of tough, because I was also prepared for him to say no. And what does that mean? And that's all separating my own sense of identity from how he sees me, and finding acceptance. If he wants to say no, that's totally fine I am proud of me, and here's why I'm proud of me.
So it was a really healing week, and it was the beginning of really transforming our relationship.
Lawrence 32:52
Thank God you had that guy that challenged you.
Tim Matthews 32:54
That one dude! He came into my life, I spoke to him twice.
Lawrence 33:00
Really? Like a sliding doors moment. Just comes in, imparts a challenge, and goes.
Tim Matthews 33:05
He was just reading some of the material I was posting on Facebook.
Lawrence 33:07
Wow.
Tim Matthews 33:08
Reached out to me, hopped on a call. He said, "Hey, try this." Hopped on a second call, that's when he said, "I want to challenge you." I've never spoken to him since. He just kind of disappeared. He doesn't even know how the challenge went, he doesn't even know the impact that that has had on my life. It's crazy.
Lawrence 33:28
I mean, that... the knotweed analogy, that is going in and getting to the very deepest root, and gently lifting it out of the soil and shaking off, and bringing it into the light. That's incredible.
Tim Matthews 33:42
Just sticking on that theme, because there were a few things that happened around this particular time over about a year to 18-month period. So, as I just said a minute ago, sharing things on social media... part of what I was just feeling called to do was share, like I say, my journey. So I was very public about everything that I'd been going through in my life up until that point.
And at that particular point as well, I took a picture of myself in one pair of boxer shorts, posted it on social media, and said, "Hey, this is where I am in my body," because I'd always hidden behind... I used to be a personal trainer, and you know, I used my looks and looking good and things like that at least I thought I did as a way to kind of get certain things, quite frankly.
Tim Matthews 34:39
...But it came from insecurity. So I was starting to become aware of all these masks, because with shame comes masks, right? They're coping mechanisms. So as I started to take these masks off and share what was behind the mask with the world in Leeds, where I was living at the time, people thought I had literally gone insane.
Lawrence 35:05
Yeah, thought you'd lost it.
Tim Matthews 35:06
My friends were they just couldn't understand it. They just they couldn't wrap their head around it. So I'd go and meet them on a Friday night. I didn't really drink at that point, either. I'd cut all that stuff back. I think in hindsight, because of what I was going through, I just didn't feel... it didn't feel like the right thing for me at that time, and I'd literally get ridiculed. I'd go to the to the pub and we'd be standing outside and I wouldn't be drinking, and they'd just be saying all sorts to me.
And I and I could take a little bit of banter. But Amelia dressed up... as banter when Amelia, because I was getting with Amelia at that time, when she recounts that time, she was like, "Yeah, that wasn't banter." No, but I think the way I coped with it was, "Hey, it's it's banter."
But I also chose to cut people out, because at this point in time, as I was sharing what was behind the mask and opening up, it was revealing to me who liked what was behind there. Had they fallen I'll use the term "fallen in love" not by any means were they in love with me, but had they fallen in love with my representative or the real version of me? So it helped me to get very clear on who actually was in my corner and who wasn't. So it became very revealing very quickly.
The third thing that happened around that time and this was before I had this conversation with my dad was I started to address a relationship that I had with my dad. So growing up, I had a somewhat complicated relationship with him. Just how I felt around him... very intimidated, and I'd walk on eggshells as a kid. And the one place that didn't feel like home was home, and all sorts... I was a very angry child because of certain things that were happening in the home. Certain things I saw and witnessed.
And anyway, long story short, I'd left the relationship I was in for various reasons, and moved back home, because I didn't move into the house that we'd gotten. You know, that was the first place I went. And one evening, I was upstairs, and my dad came up. He'd been drinking. He used to still does drink a lot. And he's like, "Make sure you take those fucking dogs out before you go to bed."
And I just began this journey of of speaking up for myself and being real with who I am and what I wanted and what what I was okay with and wasn't okay with. And the big thing I'm coming to realize was, for most of my life, I had ignored what felt true for me because it felt too scary to follow it. So me kind of ending coming out of that relationship was a really big step for me. Really big step for me.
So then for him to come upstairs and start saying those things, it was like, hang on a minute. Am I...? I remember the moment and thinking, am I gonna stand up for myself in this moment, or am I going to go backwards? And I remember muttering the words, "Don't speak to me like that."
"I will speak to you however I want. You're under my roof."
And then I got a bit more courage: "Like, no, you won't. Don't speak to me like that."
And originally, I was laid on my bed when I said it the first time. It went they went back and forth three or four times. By the end of it, I just stood up in the doorway facing him head-on.
And he said, "Oh, if you don't like it, get your bags and leave."
"Okay." So I left.
The following morning, I was meeting my dad's uncle the guy that he looks up to, or did look up to, he's passed now... probably the biggest role model in his life. I just told him exactly what my dad was like. I just completely lifted the lid on the lie that was being lived.
Long story short, what came out of that was me setting boundaries. For about seven days, I'd cut contact with him, and when he did reach out to me, I just said, "Listen, I don't need you in my life. I want you in my life, but I don't need you in my life. If you want to be in my life, here are the rules, because I'm not going to keep coming down and playing at your level."
And to his credit, he said, "Look, I'll I'll do whatever it takes."
In hindsight, I didn't realize it back then, but I was setting boundaries. Um... anyway, I reconciled with him. He tested the boundaries, you know, three or four times, and I stood firm. And that was a huge thing for me.
So, by no means... there is still more times when when shame comes up for me. Yeah, for sure. I told you I was journaling about it this morning. But I think the journey for me, at least 10 years ago, when you list those six points, I come to realize that I think there's there's a lot of... those six points in that journey: the digest the digestion can't say the word digesting of it, the boundaries piece, the curating your people...
Lawrence 40:11
...you're around.
Tim Matthews 40:12
Exactly. And I just... there was a lot of acceptance, too. I'd let go of the need to fit in, because so much of the scorecard that I'd played by was being popular. That was the that was kind of the mask...
Lawrence 40:27
...external validation. Yeah.
Tim Matthews 40:29
Completely. Massively. Yeah, hugely. And I allowed myself to challenge that scorecard and to change it, because I realized that so much of what I was doing was to please other people. In hindsight, I was being a "nice guy." And at the root of the whole nice guy syndrome, if you will I love what Robert [Glover] put together there is toxic shame. That's the root of it. Right, it is. But anyway, yeah...
Lawrence 41:02
No, it's amazing. I mean, to set boundaries is hard enough. It is a really difficult thing to do, especially if you if you spent a long time like I have, and, you know, sounds like similar in your story... to being that that nice guy, it's really difficult to set a boundary. It's even harder to maintain it.
So when you said he tested the boundaries and you still maintained them, that's that's almost as important... well, it's as important as setting the boundary in the first place, is sticking to that, I think. And to do it with a parent as well...
I mean, I had a great childhood. My parents were wonderful, and yet I still came through with little things that say that they don't even remember saying, or the way it was, or whatever. And it was nothing bad, there was no abuse or anything... laughed at. We had a wonderful childhood, we were always given everything. But there was a couple of little episodes, little things that somebody said offhand that my brother, you know, said something once, doesn't even remember it, and I've spoken to him about it. And and it's like, "I had no idea that had that effect on you."
But I lived with it as a truth, a story in my head for all of my life until, like I say, you confront it. You you look at the reality of of actually, "No, I am worthy." And that whole kind of external validation thing as well, I think there's a there's an interesting piece on that as well.
So we can... a lot of people, myself included, look for external validation and look for somebody to tell me that I've done... I've been a good boy, you know? "I've done well. You've done well." And I think, yeah, I have I have done well. And I assume that as a as a thing that, you know, that I believe, it's become a belief of mine now: I did well at that thing.
And likewise, if they if they come to me and they say, "Oh, I wasn't happy with that," or "You didn't do that very well," or "That was poor," I take that on board and I go, "Yeah, it was it was poor." And it becomes a belief that I believe about myself: that was a bad thing.
And I think there's there's a moment, or certainly throughout my journey in the movement, there's been a moment moments where I've I've taken that on board and I've and I've been able to move to the next level, which is to stop and look at that and go, "Really? Do I do I believe that?" I mean, they they've told me that that's their belief and that's they're entitled to their thing, but is it true for me? Have have I done well? Have I done badly?
But I think even then, it's still based on the the filter that I've got of my my worth, my self-worth. I'm still thinking about me as, you know, in in terms of good and bad. And if you can take those that good and bad away, and just say, "This is what was..."
And, you know, is it something that I was going to... I was going to use the word "trigger" then, but I've I've started now to jump into a slightly different topic. I've started now to stop try to stop using the word "trigger" and trying to use the word "activate." Because every time I think of myself as being triggered, I think of myself... that's like I'm being... it's like almost violent. I've been triggered like a gun. I feel I feel like a victim of something.
And actually, if I think, "Oh, that..." if you said something now that, like, hurt my feelings, I could say, "Oh, I feel triggered by what you've just said, Tim. That feels that feels bad. I need to..." But actually, if I said, "Oh, I've been activated by that," and change that word, that feels better to me. "I've been activated by that. What is it within me that's just been activated? I'm just not comfortable feeling that. Where where where's that come from? Oh, have I got some work to do on that?"
So, just as an aside, I've I've started using "activated" rather than "triggered," and that's quite helpful. Triggered's always got that kind of "wokeness" thing attached to it, as well that kind of negative thing. So, yeah, I like that: "activated."
But, yeah, removing the the good and bad from from the other people's concept of you, which again goes down to that last point I mentioned, which is is all about just not taking the praise to heart to heart, either. So, you know, when somebody says you've done something bad, it's very quick to go, "Oh, yeah, I have." When somebody says "very good," it's harder to take that on, but it... but actually, to take both good and bad away, the value of it...
Tim Matthews 44:59
I wonder... so let's say somebody gives their opinion here: "You've done well," "You've done badly," whatever it may be. A response that can work for both is, "Thanks, I appreciate that... the feedback." It's just feedback, yeah, right? It's feedback.
Lawrence 45:14
It’s a data point. Regardless of whether...
Tim Matthews 45:15
...or not I'm going to do anything with it is up to me, yeah. But that was one of the, again, I just think back to... I've never reflected on that period of my life in this way, and I think it was such a baptism of fire in learning to accept and allow people to have their own opinions, and for that that to be completely okay, and also have nothing to do with me. Because in the acceptance of me... well, in me accepting that other people can have their opinion, and it's completely okay, it also means I can, too.
Lawrence 45:52
Yep. Yes.
Tim Matthews 45:53
And when you talk about shame, a big piece of shame is is shoving things down, yeah... believing that you're wrong, not knowing what you want, or not speaking up for what you want, and the disconnect that comes between who you want to be and who you are being that inauthenticity, right?
Whereas, again, the acceptance piece if you can accept somebody else's opinion and therefore your own as well, again, it enables you to be more authentic and thus not feel as much shame.
I think one of you said, you know, "Where does it come from?" I think one of the big places that it comes from, for a lot of guys like you and I, a lot of the high achievers... one of the places, anyway, is as kids. I think a lot of the men that I speak with at least felt at times like they had to "parent the parent." And that often resulted in a hypervigilance that they would live with as a child, and their nervous system would get wired to that hypervigilance always on edge, scanning the environment, "What's going to come next?", "Where's the next risk?"
And when I say "parent the parent," what I mean by that is tampering or tapering their own emotions so that it could lessen the emotional response on the mother the mother in particular. Now, the reason why this is important is because when they then get into a relationship with their wife, they often find themselves doing the same thing. And therefore, they can internalize their wife's mood as a reflection of of them either being a "good boy" or a "bad boy." And the the unconscious narrative there is just straight back to childhood.
And I think this is a little different to what we're talking about in in terms of the shame piece, but it's an angle that I think the men really need to look at. Because when they're able to detach from their wife's mood and recognize that she is responsible for her unhappiness, and whatever her mood is, that's completely fine. That's on her, yeah. Doesn't mean you might not listen to a complaint that she has or whatever it may be. Of course you will! But there's not an internalization, no. And that's the thing with shame: it often comes with an internalization.
To your point, either of the the bad or the good or whatever labels you want to assign. And that's the thing to really watch out for: keeping things on the outside and keeping them where they really belong, instead of them bringing them in.
Lawrence 48:22
I think... I've got two things that I was thinking as you were talking there. The first one was how how terrible shame is when it get because it gets into your sort of heart. If you're talking about chakras, it gets into your heart center and it sort of corrupts that and makes you feel less than. And then it also affects that voice that voice center that kind of stops you from being able to voice it. So it lives in the dark and it strangles you, so you can't voice it and bring it out into the open because your voice is cramped up.
And and the piece about bringing that that thing in from the motherhood... the mother, like, being careful not to upset Mum. "Don't want to... you know, Mum's got a lot on her plate" kind of thing. And bringing that into a marriage just leads to you putting your wife on a pedestal. You know, she's she's on she's up there. She's on a pedestal. She's perfect. I can't... you know, I wouldn't want to, you know, rock her boat in any way. And most wives really want their boats to be rocked!
Tim Matthews 49:13
They do! And it's okay to put her on a pedestal if you're going to put yourself there as well.
Lawrence 49:18
Yes, absolutely. You know?
Tim Matthews 49:20
Put yourself... "She's my queen, I am the king right beside her," yeah, exactly beside her, yeah. Not her being above you.
Lawrence 49:27
That's that's a gem. That's a gem, absolutely, yeah. By all means, put your wife on a pedestal make sure you're standing next to her. She's your queen, you're the king. I love that. I never looked at it like that really good.
Tim Matthews 49:41
So, we've covered a lot. Three takeaways for the men.
Lawrence 49:48
I think I could... I would start with: really write some stuff down. If you've ever if you've ever if you've experienced shame, I think we all have, write that that process down. That's the start point. Get it out of your head, and have a moment to think about it and see see how you're experiencing shame.
I would say become present with it, because you can't really... you've got to find a start point. Find out where it is you're feeling shame and where it's coming up. So the journaling piece I think I would start with that, because then you can start to take all these actions about doing something about it. But until you know what it is, get really clear on where it is coming up for you, and then you can dig into where it came from.
Tim Matthews 50:34
Two more.
Lawrence 50:36
You want me to? Oh, come on! You can do the middle one, I'll do...
Tim Matthews 50:39
Okay, so you're saying "get clear" is the first one, yeah. Find a way to release it. Whether it's a clearing conversation like I did, whether it's a reset like we're talking about in front of other people... the key to releasing it is another person. So for me, the the power was in addressing it with the person my dad, right?
So whether it's a clearing conversation with somebody else, or whether it's doing it in front of a group when I say "it," I mean releasing it, like the reset. Again, the power there is being seen in front of others and releasing something and being accepted. Very difficult to do on your own. Just like it exists, shame exists in a vacuum; it exists in the dark. You can't solve a problem at the same level of thinking that created it, so you can't really release it on your own.
So find a way a safe space, safe group of people, whatever it may be to release it.
Lawrence 51:47
Yeah, that that kind of leads on to what I was going to say, which is about that that group curation. Have a look at the people that are around you that are going to champion and cheer you on, and either put boundaries in against those people who aren't safe people, identify them and put some boundaries in, or cut them out of your life if then, you know, if if that's the decision you need to make.
But get with people like the people in The Brotherhood, like the guys in the movement. Get with people who have... like, I know some guys really struggle with shame about earning a lot of money. Like, they feel really, real shame because their parents taught them money was dirty it was a thing that people, you know, stood on other people's shoulders to get, and it wasn't a pleasant thing to do. A few guys from the movement have, you know, when we do the money piece, it's very much kind of, "Well, I actually had this deep shame about having success and doing well."
Others have shame around their sexual orientation or their sexual, you know, their sexual proclivities. And I think getting around people who are sex-positive or who have made a bit of money and are comfortable with that, or whatever it is that... you're getting around those people and realizing that, actually, it's not a shameful thing at all. It's actually it's actually to be celebrated. We live in the age of the internet. There's 1,000,001 interest groups out there. Somebody else loves what you love or struggles with what you struggle with, and you can find a support network there.
Tim Matthews 53:06
Yeah, and I think fourth one bonus one starts small.
Lawrence 53:12
Yes. You know, I think...
Tim Matthews 53:14
What I've seen work for a lot of men, and what worked for me, was just... I started small, and it started to build courage and it built momentum, and I kept it going, and it just perpetuated. And I've seen that for a lot of men. But you've got to get going. And sometimes, for me, it was good to just dive in and do some radical things. For other people, that might not work. It might be something smaller. But whatever it is, just just start, and if you need to start small, then great. And like you said, the safe space with safe people is key, as is the clarity.
Lawrence 53:48
Well, this is interesting. So this is a conversation I had recently with one of the guys in our pack, and it was like, how do I, you know... "I want to do something a bit more kinky in the bedroom with with the missus. I'm not sure." And and and it was like, start small. You know, you don't have to... you don't have to turn around and say, "Oh, actually, you know, I want... I'm really into leather and whips and chains." You you could just turn around and say, like... pillow talk, you've just you've just had sex, you're relaxed, you're chatting together: "I'd really like to try try a blindfold next time," you know?
And and the thing the thing during that conversation, the thing was that if she's positive about that, "Oh, I'm interested in that, that might be a good thing to do," or whatever... that builds a positive, and then you stack that positive. And then the next time you can ask for something more, or you can do something different, or whatever. And because you're getting positive feedback from the other person like you got positive feedback from your dad it's like, "I survived that. Not only did I survive it, I had an amazing conversation. It led to this, this, and this." That's a real positive! So that gives you that encouragement and motivation to do it again and again, and that builds and builds. Yeah, build up that motivation. So starting small is a great one, yeah.
Tim Matthews 54:50
Nice. Thanks for bringing this.
Lawrence 54:52
No problem, my pleasure.
Tim Matthews 54:53
So, guys, hopefully you took a lot of value from that. If you want to find out more about what we do here at TPM, be it the Alpha Reset, The Activation Method, whatever it may be, just reach out to VIP@thepowerfulman.com. That's Very Important Person VIP@thepowerfulman.com.
But look, whether you do something with those or or not, you know, I just want you to do something. If this resonates and you're feeling shameful, just don't stay stuck. Don't stay on the fence; it's the worst place you can be. Just do something, find somewhere, because life is too short to be average.
So we'll see you next time on The TPM Show.