Episode #956
Why do so many men struggle in silence when it comes to mental health? And more importantly, what can we do about it?
In this episode, I sit down with Sean Stiller, a psychotherapist with over 16 years of experience, to tackle the tough conversations around suicide, depression, and hopelessness—topics that impact more men than we often realize. Sean breaks down the common misconceptions surrounding mental health, the warning signs to watch for, and, most importantly, how to shift from feeling hopeless to finding real hope.
We also dive into:
✔️ Why high-achieving men often struggle with depression
✔️ How our beliefs and identity can unknowingly trap us in pain
✔️ The subtle (but powerful) mindset shift that changes everything
✔️ Practical steps to help yourself—or someone you love—through dark times
If you’ve ever felt stuck, lost, or like you’re carrying the weight of the world alone, this episode is for you. You’re not alone, and there is a way forward.
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Transcription
Sean Stiller 0:00
I want to demystify some of the ideas around suicide. I want to make it a little simpler in people’s minds so that they can have a better grasp of what they’re working with. Obviously, I’m not giving up treatment, etc., over the online, but for the general layperson, so they have a better understanding of what is going on or what happened. Why did this happen to someone that I dearly love? And so it could give them some answers that are useful answers for them.
Doug Holt 0:41
Hey guys, welcome back to the TPM show. Today, I have a very, very special guest with me. I have Sean Stiller. Now, Sean has been a psychotherapist for the last 16 years, working with thousands of clients and couples to help them with common mental health problems like depression, anger, anxiety, habits, and addictions, and, of course, relationships.
He’s worked in both inpatient and outpatient settings and has worked with military members and their families as well. Sean even has a workbook that will be published in late March called How to Break Through Any Emotional and Behavioral Challenge So You Can Live a Happy Life. Who doesn’t want that, right? At the end of the day, Sean currently has a private practice called Coastal Cognitive Behavior Therapy, which specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy.
And so, if you’re interested in talking more or learning more about Sean, we’ll make sure to put his information down below, but you can go to his website at CoastalCBT.com. That’s Charlie Baker Tom dot com. He works with people both in person and remotely.
Sean, thanks for being here.
Sean Stiller 1:47
Hi, glad to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Doug Holt 1:51
Absolutely. So, you came highly recommended by one of our coaches, and you and I had a great conversation last time. And this comes off of, you know, the unfortunate, tragic loss of one of the men that has been through the program previously—a great gentleman who unfortunately took his own life and really rocked the TPM movement or community that we have here internally.
It also brought up the conversation point, and I think it’s the CDC—last time I checked—suicide being the number two cause of death for men 14, I think it’s to 46 or somewhere in that range, Sean, and number one for men in the UK. It’s just never talked about.
Sean Stiller 2:39
It’s actually also been increasing over the last decade or so. So it’s been more prevalent. I know in the United States, it’s gone up about 20% over the last decade. So, just to add even more to what you’re saying, Doug, unfortunately, it has been increasing. And the most unfortunate part of it is that it’s preventable and very treatable. You might be surprised when we get into our discussion about how treatable it really actually is. And that’s maybe the saddest part of it, but also the most hopeful part—it can be prevented.
Doug Holt 3:21
Yeah, and I really appreciate men like you bringing this to light. Right? Again, we hear about heart disease, we hear about stroke and high stress and all these killers, but we’re talking—those are like number three, four, and five, you know, not even one and two. And I know when we talked off air, so to speak, in a previous conversation, you’ve had direct impact in this area in your practice.
Sean Stiller 3:48
Yeah, it’s been a great privilege to be able to, over those 16 years that we talked about, help individuals that come in with suicidal problems, suicidal behavior, and suicidal thoughts, and to be able to see them from the point where they come in, Doug, where they’re really at the bottom of bottoms. And it doesn’t matter what your background is, doesn’t matter your color, demographics, etc.—everybody’s susceptible to this. But the great privilege is being able to take them from that point, go through that process, and see them overcome it. And it’s one of my great joys and one of the things that really gives me a lot of fulfillment—unbelievable fulfillment—to see them come out of it.
But it can be a very scary process in the beginning because sometimes, there’s life and death that we’re talking about here, obviously. But there’s a lot to get into about the specifics of those things, and I want to—part of what I was hoping to really impress upon your audience—is to demystify some of the ideas around suicide. I want to make it a little simpler in people’s minds so that they can have a better grasp of what they’re working with. Obviously, I’m not giving up treatment, etc., online, but for the general layperson, so they have a better understanding of what is going on or what happened. Why did this happen to someone that I dearly love? And so, it could give them some answers—useful answers—for them.
Doug Holt 5:39
Yeah, I think that’s really important. What you bring up—when I think about myself in my, let’s just say, 20s or even early 30s—I wouldn’t have known that this was so common, number one. Number two, there is that stigma that I want to demystify for some of the men, and some of you guys listening to this right now, whether you’re in the car, on the treadmill, or whatever you’re doing at this moment, you may think, “Hey, this doesn’t apply to me, right? I’m not having suicidal thoughts.”
But when you look at the statistics, chances are you know somebody that is. And Sean, for me, in the position I’m in, working with thousands upon thousands of men at this point, when I gain men’s trust and their confidentiality, and I ask the question, “How many of you guys have considered taking your own life?”—the number of hands that go up is staggering, right? And I just want the men out there listening to this to know, first and foremost, before we begin:
One, you’re not alone. Two, if you are going through this process, obviously, we’d love for you to listen to this podcast, but call somebody immediately. We’ve got you, guys. There are a lot of men like Sean or myself—I’m not an expert, but I’ll pick up the phone. And just know that you’re not alone out there. There are tons of hotlines to call.
That’s not what we’re trying to achieve with this podcast and this episode. We just really want to bring awareness with experts like Sean coming on. But guys, know that you’re not alone, right? There are a lot more men out there suffering in silence. And if you’re like me, one of those guys that hasn’t considered suicide, for me, it’s just a good reminder that I don’t know what the person next to me is walking through right now. And it’s just a good consideration. So, Sean, when you’re working with an individual or a client that’s coming in, what are some of the telltale signs? Or how does an individual get to this point?
Sean Stiller 7:30
The signs that are most common are probably things you already know about, Doug, and maybe your audience does too. Obviously, the biggest sign is when someone talks about death. Healthy individuals—maybe a healthy 40-year-old or 35-year-old or whatever—if they’re just focused on death, if they’re talking about it, that’s a warning sign. What we know about people who actually do commit suicide is that they generally tell people, right? So, it’s not usually hidden. Now, there is a point in time, unfortunately, where it gets really dangerous—when they start hiding it. But initially, they want help. They want relief.
Oftentimes, the act of suicide itself is about seeking relief. So, obviously, one of the big signs is that they will tell someone—a friend, a pastor, a therapist, or maybe a loved one like a spouse. And we want to take that seriously. Other things you might notice are social withdrawal. Maybe this person was more extroverted, had a lot of friends, spent a lot of time socially, and now they’re withdrawing. They’re not doing that as much. They’re also likely to be depressed—more often than not, they’re going to be depressed. Other signs include changes in energy levels and concentration. Now, one of these things alone is not necessarily determinative. If someone has a bad day and they’re low energy, it doesn’t mean they’re suicidal, or that your friend is. I don’t want to give that impression.
But certainly, when people are talking about it and they’re very depressed—hopelessness is one of the key features. And I want to go, maybe later on, into more depth about why that is. Because I believe that hopelessness is at the heart of this—one of the core factors. There are a couple of things that, once we grasp them, will really demystify it and make it a little simpler or more concrete. But we can get into that if we want to. I’d also like to see where you want to take the conversation from here.
Doug Holt 10:02
Yeah, and just so the guys know, I told Sean, “Hey, man, this is going to be like jazz. We don’t need to prep for this conversation—we’re just going to have it.” And Sean happens to be an amazing guitar player and was in a jazz band. So, just as an aside, I like to bring some humanity to it. You know, what’s interesting when I’m listening to you talk—we just had an event in Breckenridge, and I had about 10 men come up to me privately and say, “Hey, I just want to thank you and your team. You guys saved my life.”
And you talk about hopelessness. Now, we work with men usually on two different paths. The first one—the one we talk about the most on this show—is men looking to save their marriages, right? Without sacrificing their business or themselves. And the second group of guys are just a little lost and stuck, like, “Hey, what’s the next step in life?” And I think what happens there, Sean, is for a lot of these men—like the men that came up to me—it’s not lost on me, the gravity of that comment: Hey, you saved my life. It touches me each and every time, to my core, when a man shares that with me. Again, I don’t take it lightly. I have a whole team behind me.
But what I wonder is, when your primary relationship isn’t working right, as men, we tend to think we’re not enough. We’re not good enough. We’re failures or what have you. Even though these men are very successful in a lot of areas, I would imagine that would also bring in hopelessness, like, It’s not working. It’s not worth it. So, can you talk to me a little bit about this hopelessness—how men get there, or how people get there—and what they can do about it?
Sean Stiller 11:41
I’m really excited to share a couple of ideas that can truly transform your thinking—not just about suicidal behavior, but about life itself. I know that sounds like hyperbole, but it is not. I’m really excited to talk about this because, while it’s such a somber discussion about suicide—and my heart goes out to anybody who has suffered the loss of a loved one—I also want to bring it back to how this matters to us all. Actually, what happens is a couple of things. Number one: As human beings, we have these desires. Let’s call them wants. I want to make more money. I want to be a better parent to my children. I want to have a better relationship with my spouse, etc. I want to do better with my physical fitness. I want to lose weight.
So, we have these strong wants—or goals, if you will. But sometimes, we turn those wants into absolute needs. And by absolute needs, I mean the emotional equivalent to air, food, and water. When that happens—when we confuse our needs with our wants, or we upgrade those wants to a complete need—it’s very easy to do that as human beings. But when we don’t actually attain that need—when we don’t reach the goal, don’t get the promotion, don’t get the girl, or the relationship doesn’t work out—that’s when that hopelessness feature kicks in. That’s the second thing I want to talk about. So, first, we confuse needs with wants.
Second, we experience hopelessness when that need isn’t fulfilled. Doug, that’s when we’re really in the danger zone—because this isn’t just something I want really badly, it’s something I need. It’s the emotional equivalent to air, food, and water. I could give you anecdotes and examples of this, but when hopelessness sets in—when a person believes, I must have this, It must work out, I need this to happen, My business must succeed, My relationship must survive—and then they feel completely hopeless about getting it… that’s when we have a serious problem. That’s also where suicidal thoughts can come in. Because, at that point, suicide becomes an option for some people to escape the pain of hopelessness. You can hear it in the way clients, friends, and others talk about it. They’re not just joking or saying it flippantly. They’re being honest. But then there’s also that deep hopelessness: There’s nothing I can do to change it. My life is in shambles.
And that’s where the misery tends to come in. But now that we know those two things, we can start to deal with it in a way that helps shift perspective. Because, is it truly hopeless? No, it’s not. But the hardest thing to do as a clinician, a friend, or anyone else, is to get them to the point where hopelessness turns into hopefulness. And we can talk more about how to do that, if you’d like.
So, again, those are the two things I think are really important to understand:
- We confuse a want with an absolute need.
- We feel hopeless about getting that need met.
And that’s where the problem lies. But that’s also where the answer lies.
Doug Holt 15:28
I love this. I haven’t thought of it that way before. So, what I’m seeing—when I look over the guys that I’ve worked with and talked to—the two things that come up to me when you say that are:
One, the guys that we work with are high achievers, right? These are men who have built big businesses or are in the process of doing so. And they want to achieve more. So, they set a goal. They crush the goal. They spend five minutes celebrating. And then they set a new goal, right? Which creates a gap. Now, there’s a gap between where they are and where they want to be. And when I hear you talk about hopelessness, what I’m hearing is an identity play. They’ve made it their identity to have this need. And you know, we’ll do anything to match our identity or what our perceived identity is.
Sean Stiller 16:15
Absolutely. That’s really fascinating. The identity is oftentimes, I am a businessman, I am a good father, I am a good lover, I am a good partner.
But when those things start to fall apart, that’s when we have problems, right? That’s when we start to have issues.
Doug Holt 16:42
Talk to me a little bit more about how we go from hopelessness to hopefulness. I really like that transition.
Sean Stiller 16:50
I’m going to say something that might seem a little odd or controversial, but when you really think about it, I believe most people will understand: All hopelessness, by its nature, is irrational. Okay? The problem with hopelessness is that it misses the fact that we just don’t know.
For example, let’s say someone is going through a divorce—a very typical situation where someone might actually think in suicidal terms. They may think: I’m hopeless. I’ll never find love again. I’ll never find someone again. I’m defective as a human being. There’s something wrong with me at my core. The problem with that hopeless thinking—I’ll never find love again. No one will ever love me—is: How do you know that? We don’t. We don’t have a crystal ball.
And in cognitive behavioral therapy—which I’m trained in, as you might have noticed from my practice, Coastal Cognitive Behavioral Therapy—we’re really trained in the idea that our thinking causes problems in our emotions. If we have a dysfunctional behavior or a dysfunctional emotion, it comes from our thinking. A great quote I love to reference is from Shakespeare: “Things are neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so.” So, it’s our thinking.
One of the best parts of being a psychotherapist is that I have the privilege of hearing the most insecure, intimate, and personal thoughts a human being can share. And to me, that is a great honor and privilege. People will say things like: My life is in shambles. I can’t make my business work anymore. My child won’t talk to me anymore. My marriage is falling apart. It’s hopeless. I’ve tried everything. Everything?
But there’s always one more thing they haven’t tried. And they miss that. We miss that. It’s the biggest con we play on ourselves. We’ve all been there. But if we step out of that self-hypnosis for a second and take a fresh look, the truth is—there’s always another book, always another person we can talk to, always another program, another therapist, another method, something else we haven’t thought of.
And here’s another thing I’ll say about hopelessness that’s really helpful for all of us: To be hopeless is one of the most arrogant perspectives a human being can have. Think about it—when someone says, It’s hopeless, they’re essentially saying they know, with 100% certainty, that nothing can ever change. But that’s simply not true. We don’t know that.
And I could go deeper into this, but the bottom line is: In order to help a person overcome hopelessness, we have to use good, old-fashioned logic and rationality. We have to examine: Is this thinking truly logical? Is it truly based in fact? Because, as I said before, all hopelessness, by its nature, is irrational.
Doug Holt 20:34
And it makes complete sense when you say it that way. You know, we can’t predict the future. Nobody can. And when we look at the topic of suicidal behavior—or thoughts, maybe suicidal thoughts is a better way to phrase it—what that individual is really saying is: “Hey, look, I know what’s going to happen.” “I can predict my entire future.” Rather than staying in the present, right?
Sean Stiller 21:00
Exactly. And they tell themselves, It will never work out for me. The thing I feel like I absolutely need—not just want—will never come to be. And they think they know that because they say, I’ve tried everything. But no, you haven’t. We haven’t tried everything. There’s always another way forward. So, when someone is at that critical point—when they’re considering suicide—one of the most important things we can do as clinicians, therapists, or even just as great friends, is to help them understand that there is hope.
And one way to do that is by asking: “Would you be willing to live a little bit longer—just to see if another try at something different might work?” If they can say yes to that, they have a chance.And that’s what we want to help them hold on to.
Doug Holt 21:52
Are there ever times, Sean, when you ask that question and someone says, No, I’m not willing to give it another shot?
Sean Stiller 21:57
Yeah, and that’s when we have to get a few more interventions involved, right? That’s where someone might need extra help, like hospitalization or something like that. But the other thing to consider here is, a lot of times, we talked about the need—how people turn something into a need.
By the way, I love that you were talking about some of the folks you work with—high achievers. That really sparked something in my mind because there’s a delicate balance we should talk about. There’s a delicate balance between really needing to achieve something versus having that strong want. I know these are subtle word choices, but you feel the difference in your body. When you want something, it feels different than when you need something.
What I think your guys are great at is overcoming obstacles to get to their goals. They set a long-term goal, and if there’s a wall, they’ll climb over it. If there’s an obstacle, they’ll dig under it, go around it—whatever it takes to get to that end result. It may not be exactly what they envisioned, but in spirit, they achieve something meaningful. What I’m talking about is how people often confuse the means to achieving a goal with the actual goal itself.
What do I mean by that? Let’s say you have a bicycle wheel with spokes coming out of the hub. Imagine the hub represents the goal—the thing a person truly wants in life. It could be a financial goal, a physical goal, a relational goal—anything. Now, let’s say a person believes, I need my business to be successful in order to be happy. But that’s just one spoke in the wheel. They start to think, I need this specific thing to be happy, and if I don’t get it, I’ll be miserable.
What I want people to understand is this: No, you’re not really wanting to earn money for the sake of money. You’re not really wanting this one specific thing. The thing itself won’t make you happy. What you’re actually searching for is what it represents—things like love, connection, significance, importance, stability.
As men, we want to feel strong and significant. We want challenge. We don’t want life to be easy all the time—we want meaningful challenges. We also want certainty, stability, and the belief that things will work out well in our lives. I had a dear friend who called me a couple of years ago. He told me about his brother, who had recently committed suicide.
He wanted to talk about it, so I listened. His brother had gone through medical school and was about to start his residency as a surgeon. Now, did he want to be a surgeon, or did he need to be a surgeon? For him, it was a need—like air, food, and water. But then, he developed a medical condition that caused seizures, making his hands shake periodically.
And because of that, he wasn’t accepted into a surgical residency. To him, this one spoke—becoming a surgeon—was the only way to achieve significance and happiness. And when that one spoke broke, he believed there were no other options. That was the tragedy—he didn’t see that there were many other ways to achieve the same sense of purpose, significance, and contribution.
If I had been able to sit down with him, I would have asked: “Do you really believe that the only way you can be happy is by being a surgeon?” “Why did you want to become a surgeon?”
And he might have said, Because I wanted to do great things. I wanted to help people. I wanted to contribute. Then I would ask: “Are there other ways you could achieve those things?” “Are there other people who have found significance and fulfillment in different ways?” And suddenly, that rigid thinking starts to shift. This goes beyond just suicidal thinking—it applies to all of us.
Because how often do we believe there’s only one way to achieve success, happiness, or fulfillment? But as the saying goes, God’s delays are not God’s denials. When one door closes, another opens. And that’s the message I want to impress on people. The thing you think will make you happy isn’t the thing itself—it’s something bigger. And there are many paths to that destination.
Doug Holt 28:12
I love that. And I shared with you—I’m at the TPM Ranch, where we do our flagship experiential event, the Alpha Reset. It’s kind of like Fight Club—the guys don’t talk about what happens, but they share their results. And 100% of them say it’s life-changing. That’s not hyperbole—we’ve done anonymous reviews for seven years, and men consistently say this event changed their lives. The most common thing they say is: “I found myself—maybe for the first time.”
Or, “I refound myself.” And when I hear your story about the surgeon, I think about identity. Was that really his dream? Or did someone else place that identity upon him? Did society tell him, If you’re going to be a doctor, then surgery is the highest status position, and anything else is second best?
It’s like he was wearing that identity like a suit. And at Alpha Reset, we strip all of that away. That’s when men start to feel hopeful—because they realize they have a clean slate on which to build their lives. And it sounds like you’re saying something very similar—that there’s one destination, but many paths to get there.
Sean Stiller 29:48
Yeah, you said it much better than I did! That’s exactly what I’m trying to say. And you’re right about identity. Whenever I hear someone say, I am…, I tell them to be careful with those words. The two most powerful words in the world are “I am.” Because whatever follows that statement defines how we see ourselves. If someone says, I am a surgeon, and their whole identity is wrapped up in that… what happens when they can’t be a surgeon anymore? But the truth is—you’re not a surgeon. You’re a human being. Fallible. Imperfect. Just like the rest of us. And that’s one of the most beautiful things we can come to understand about who we truly are.
Doug Holt 30:51
Hey guys, sorry to interrupt this episode, but the reality is, if you are watching or listening to this right now, then you are looking to better yourself, and I applaud you. You’re one of my people, and I want to give you the opportunity of taking massive action. So if you haven’t joined The Activation Method yet, it’s our flagship program. Do what 1000s of other businessmen, just like you, have done, and take action. Be one of the one percenters that actually does the work and takes action. There’ll be a link in the description that’ll take you right to a page that’ll just give you more information. There is no obligation. Just go check it out and see if it’s a good fit for you. All right, let’s get back to this episode.
Sean Stiller 31:34
We can strip off all the ideas, like you said. Yeah, it could have been given to them by somebody from, I don’t know, that father who thought that surgeons are the greatest ever or something like that. Who the hell knows where we get these ideas from? It doesn’t much matter. At a certain point, we have these ideas. But sometimes these ideas can cause immense misery in our lives, and once we can rid ourselves of those things where we can have ideas that are more empowering, beliefs that are going to be useful in our life, push us toward a greater goal and help us, then, then, you know, we’re going to have something that’s going to be more useful for us. So I love, I love to know more about your events. They seem so cool.
Doug Holt 32:16
I mean, it’s the reason I do this work. They are life-changing again. We had 46 men in Breckenridge for an event. This event here is much smaller because we can guarantee the result. But one of the things that I talk about to the men is, here I have my iPhone with me, and I update the iPhone software a few times a year. I don’t know how many times updates come out, but when there’s an update for software, I update the software. And I always ask the men, when’s the last time you updated your software, your belief systems, and the things? Because I hear it all the time, and I look at myself, right? A lot of guys are like, Well, I’m never gonna do what my dad did. The next thing you know, you’re in your 40s, looking in the mirror, going, Wait a minute, my mannerisms are the same. When did this happen?
And also talking to the guys, and this will tie this into the guys having suicidal thoughts. But I hear often when men say, I am this, or I am that, or any of these old adages, you know, Hey, money doesn’t grow on trees. Any of these things that I look at as that have been programmed. I ask, Where did you learn that? And when men can figure it out, where they learned it from, it’s usually an old, Hey, I used to hear my mom say that around the house, or my dad did that. You know, surgeons. He made one comment like, Oh, Frank. Frank’s a surgeon. He’s an amazing guy. Not meaning that your kid has to be a surgeon, but the child, from a child’s perspective, right? Still, brain forming, thinks, In order for my dad to think I’m amazing, I must be a surgeon. Otherwise, I, you know, I won’t gain my dad’s love.
Sean Stiller 34:04
Wow, yeah, yeah. I’m still trying to get the love from my father then. Yeah, in a situation like that, I still want that approval, and that’s the blueprint of my mind. It’s mapped out. That’s how I can get that approval, that’s how I can feel significant, that’s how I can feel, you know, loved is by being a surgeon. And updating the software, yeah, I was wondering where you were going with that. I was like, Where is he going with the software? I guess it’s an analog. Okay, yes. And now that’s totally right. Yeah, it’s that those belief systems that, are they useful for us? Are they helpful for us? So you help the guys with that then?
Doug Holt 34:43
Oh yeah, I mean myself. We have a team of coaches, but when I think about this topic of suicidal thoughts, right? So what you had mentioned, I’d love to talk a little bit more about maybe depression and how, you know, how that ties in with hopelessness, because I can see corollaries, but the same time. You know, if I’m having, if I’m depressed or having suicidal thoughts, I’ve made something mean something else, right? I’ve attached meaning to an outcome or to my current existence. And I hear this also a lot from the guys, you know, this kind of idea of like, They’ll be better off without me. And they’ve come to that point where, Hey, they’ll, you know, they don’t want me around. I cause too many problems, or, you know, whatever it may be, they just don’t want me around. What do you do, Sean, when you, when you run into somebody making comments like that?
Sean Stiller 35:38
I say, Let’s get scientific. You know, you claim that you’re a burden to these individuals. And have they told you that? Now, hopefully, Doug, hopefully they haven’t said, Actually, you are a big burden to us. You’re a big problem. We’d rather have you not be around, etc., etc. Hopefully, that’s not been the case. Assuming that isn’t, do some research in them. In it, let’s see how much of a burden you actually are. Have you talked to your wife and asked her what she thinks of you? Are you of value to her? How about your children, depending on their age level and understanding, etc.? What are they going to say?
And they might actually be surprised because, again, the big con game here is our thoughts. Sometimes we can sometimes be our own biggest cons, yes, and we’re telling ourselves a bunch of distortions and lies. And let’s get the actual facts. And so what I recommend to my clients, if they’re in a position to do so, is to check and to do a little research in the matter. And of course, what they normally find out is the opposite. From being a burden, they’re a value to the people that are most important in their lives. But that’s the insidious nature of what we’re dealing with. Because yes, I’m glad you brought it up, they’ll oftentimes be saying, I’m a burden for these people, or I’m a burden on my family, and they believe it 100%, as much as one plus one equals two. They will tell you that it’s absolutely true, that I am a burden, and that’s where it’s, it’s dangerous.
But I want to open the door for uncertainty, to be able to show them that, Let’s take a look at what the facts actually are. And when they do that, then they generally find out that that’s just not the case. Yeah, and it’s gonna be, it could be eye-opening. Something as simple as that can be eye-opening, and then the thoughts and ideas of suicide are no longer necessary oftentimes because what oftentimes deters people from suicidal behavior, as you can imagine, are things like family.
Doug Holt 38:34
Wow. Okay, I can definitely see that. One thing comes up for me. I was talking, I’ve personally just never had suicidal thoughts. So when I’m, I always put my kind of curiosity hat on when someone shares with me that they previously were either suicidal or had them. And I’d love to get your take on this. One guy that scared me, because that’s not having them, is he said, Well, you know, Doug, I didn’t have them either. But then I was going through a really, really rough period. Work, home, life, they all kind of came to a confluence, if you will. And I was driving down the highway, and just next thing you know, I felt like something took over, and now I’m going 120 miles an hour down the wrong way on the road. And I kind of, have you heard of that happening? He felt like he kind of blacked out, if you will, and then snapped out of it, like he was maybe just too much pressure. Is what it sounded like to me.
Sean Stiller 39:32
Yeah, that’s a real unique case. From my perspective, I would be more inclined to, I’d be interested to find out more about his typical blueprint, his software, as you call it. I like that from the last week or two before that happening, you know, and did you have an intention to harm yourself? Because one thing we want to differentiate between is a sort of self-harm behavior that’s non-suicidal and actual suicidal behavior. You know, just as a kind of a technical thing here, but an important distinction, you know, non-suicidal or self-harming behavior might be someone cutting, or driving fast, or drinking too much alcohol, etc., but they don’t have the intention, and that’s the key distinction of actually killing, killing themselves. And so, we put those into two different categories for good reason. You know, they can both be lethal, unfortunately, but it makes me wonder too if maybe that person wasn’t suicidal, but that they were just trying to get some kind of drive from it, or some impulse, you know, novelty, or some thrill, or something like that.
Doug Holt 40:57
Okay, interesting. Yeah, it was unusual for me as well. Let’s backtrack here a second and talk about that link between depression, if we can, and hopelessness, because I think that’s something that would be unique to drive home for these guys that may be listening—one feeling depressed or hopeless in their marriage, their relationships, business perhaps isn’t working out. You know, how does somebody, one, how does somebody transcend that? I’ll use that word. And two, at what point should someone know, Yep, I need to, I need to call Sean or someone like Sean and sit down with him and have a conversation?
Sean Stiller 41:38
We should talk a little bit about depression, you know, and what really fosters that. That’s another one we can demystify quite a bit, I think. What is it? Again, if you look in the book, it’s going to tell you things like, you know, the person’s going to have sleep difficulty, low interest in activities that normally bring them interest, low energy, concentration problems, appetite issues, etc., and they’re going to feel depressed, obviously, too. I basically gave you the whole DSM-5, you know, symptoms. So if you’re interested in that, that’s not really the thing, though. What it really is, from a clinical perspective, where we can actually treat it, is when someone’s feeling really low or depressed for an extended period of time, it’s usually based on that interesting thing that you brought up earlier about the gap.
Ah, so you have a position where you want to be, you have a goal, I think, and maybe I might be—tell me if I’m misrepresenting it. But then also, there’s a big gap. The wider the gap between where you actually are and where you want to be, the more distress that we’re going to have, the more discomfort that we’re going to have. And actually, it’s useful. If you want to achieve goals, you need to be able to honor that feeling of frustration, even, or things like that. And it can be very useful emotions, because it’s like, No, I’m going to do better, etc. But as that gap becomes bigger and bigger, sometimes people start to get depressed, and what they will do is they will say comments to themselves like this or to others:
“I should be a—” let’s say it’s an adolescent, “I should be on the basketball team. I should have made the basketball team. I’m a basketball player—identity too, and I should make the basketball team. I got cut,” right? And now the person has such a huge gap there that they start to say, “Well, I should have made the basketball team.”
And then what comes from that? A lot of times people swing so far over and say, “I’m worthless,” yeah, or “I’m not good enough.” Ah, those, I hear in my ears as a clinician, ding, ding, ding, ding. I can help this person. It gets exciting because now, at that point, we know that, again, this is a big con game. We’re starting—this person’s conning themselves, and they’re believing their own lies about it, and we can start to help with it.
But when we start to say those messages, obviously, we start to get depressed because someone who says that they’re actually worthless or they’re not good enough, what would they do in their lives? Not much at all. That’s when you start sitting—the couch is depression’s best friend. You know, it’s like, Ah, what the hell, it’s no use anyway. You know, I might as well watch another Netflix special or something like that. I’m not going to make the basketball team anyway. You know, it’s not going to work out anyway. You know, I’m no good at this stuff anyway.
So that’s what is usually happening. From a cognitive perspective, people are telling themselves that, “Hey, I should be at this level, or I should be doing this, or I should be this identity,” and they’re so far away from it that they go and say, “Well, I guess that means I’m worthless,” or “I’m not good enough as a human being. There must be something wrong with me.”
People come out of relationships and say, “There must be something wrong with my inner being that gets me to this place. This has been the third relationship that’s gone wrong. Am I, in my very being, defective?”
And that’s why, you know, somebody gets really, really depressed with that. And then, how do we transcend it? Obviously, we want to look at, Are these thoughts really true? Are they based in fact? What’s the evidence to support this idea that you’re defective to your core, for example, and you can’t be in another relationship, and you can’t find love in your life?
Let’s take a look at this. And I become the prosecuting attorney. A lot of times where I am going to break that thing down. It’s up on the witness stand. I was in the debate team for four years when I was in high school. So bear with me. If you’re like—I’ve had many people say in my life, “You know what? You should have been an attorney.” And they’re usually not being nice about it. They’re usually saying, “Please shut up and stop arguing. Stop arguing with me all the time.”
I get this from my family even, God bless them. But I use that skill to help my clients because they’re there for a reason. They want to get help. They want to change it too, right? And once they understand their thinking, their software that needs to be updated—great analogy—we can change software. We can do something with that.
Now we start to get into breaking it down and saying, Is it really true? Is it based in fact? Is there evidence to support this? Is this really logical? etc.
And one of the cool things in my work, in my training, in my workbook, is I list 17 different mental mistakes that human beings make that are very common to people, called the common mental mistakes.
And for example, one of them is irrational labeling, like we talked about before. You know, “I am no good,” or “I’m fat,” or “I’m worthless.” That’s a complete overgeneralization. You’re, of course, not. There’s plenty of things that you do well.
Or, let’s say, all-or-none thinking is another one of these common mental mistakes. You know, this is good for dieting, right? “I’m doing great for seven days straight on my diet. I’m eating whole foods, no chips, no any of that stuff. And then I eat a couple of chips from the bag because they offer it. And now I’m like, ‘Oh, I screwed up my whole damn diet.’ All-or-nothing thinking,” right?
Doug Holt 48:12
Might as well eat pizza now.
Sean Stiller 48:13
Pizza. Pizza is my favorite too, but it’s like, oh, the hell with it. Now, you know, I’m off my diet, so screw it, you know, that kind of stuff. But what I help my clients understand is I teach them these things, and I have them read about it in my workbook. I have worksheets on it because I want them to be mindful of what they are, so they can point it out in themselves without a therapist being around. I want them to be the best therapist that they can be without me. I’m trying to push myself out of a job—terrible business model. But anyway, getting back to transcending the depression, it gets back to, again, being able to help people understand how to break down their thinking, to be aware of it, and to see, is it empowering? Is it disempowering? Is it useful? Is it even based in fact at all? And a lot of times, we find out, no, it’s just not. It’s just not helpful or useful or even true.
Doug Holt 49:10
Yeah, I do a similar exercise when I’m coaching men, especially one-on-one. In a court of law, is this an undeniable fact, you know? And of course, you’re usually like, you know, no, you know, they get all upset. Why are you taking away my story? You know, kind of attitude. Because a lot of us, we hold on to our stories like a little blanky, like a kid holds on to a favorite stuffed animal or something. We don’t want to let it go.
And guys and women—I used to coach women CEOs a long time ago as well—they hold on to that story about who they are or what’s happening in their lives, a story about the past, and they do not want to let it go because it’s so tied into their identity that it scares them. It causes fear within them to let it go.
I also love the fact that you offer a workbook with what you do because I think that’s—I gotta imagine—the self-actualization that people go through. They get a chance to get new insights from you personally, and then going home, they’re owning part of the work that they’re doing, right? Not just, Sean’s gonna fix me, sprinkle some magic dust on me when I come into his office, you know? But then they’re also taking ownership for their own growth and self-actualization. There’s something tangible about that, that homework, if you would, or the workbook—doing something on one’s own, rather than having it spoon-fed to them.
Sean Stiller 50:40
Well, and I’m sure in your work with your guys that you make it an important point that they do work in between the meetings, and that they’re taking action, and they’re being very active with the process. I love what you said. You really struck a chord with me, Doug, about the story, and one word came to my mind—resistance. Resistance to change. Gosh, for the last, you know, five to ten years, the first five years, I would really fail at helping people a lot of times because I didn’t understand how insurmountable, sometimes, this resistance is with people wanting to change.
There’s a great quote: People yearn for change, but they cling to the status quo. Right? They cling to that thing. It’s safe and it’s certain, and I know it. It’s my damn blueprint, my story. Don’t screw with it, and I got it. But you came in here. You want me to help you with your depression. You want me to help you with your anxiety or something.
Your relationships are the biggest. I mean, we could have like five podcasts on those. But yeah, you’re so right. And God, I’d be really interested to find out how you work around resistance. I certainly have my own tools with it, but it’s a real big challenge, for sure.
Doug Holt 52:06
Oh, it is, yeah. We have a series of things that we’ve developed over the years. You know, I think people get to know, and this, this goes right into suicidal thoughts. It’s just a story, right? And so here’s an exercise I’ll have somebody do, Sean. I’ll go, You know what? Write your story out, and I’ll give them time. And I don’t want you to flush this story out. I expect you to have two to three pages minimum, and I want you to write it all out.
So guys will sit there, and they’ll get their journals out and start typing it. I could have them write it, right? Just prefer writing versus typing. And they’ll come back with two, three pages—let’s call it three.
And they got their story, and man, You know, I was wronged at this time. She or he did this to me. And there’s all kinds of stuff in the story, and they’re good. They’re compelling. I mean, the stories are really good.
And so then I have them say, What I want you to do now is grab a highlighter, and now, I want you to highlight the undisputable facts that nobody can dispute within the story.
And Sean, I’ll tell you, I’ve done this hundreds of times with men and women, but men specifically, and they may have five or six sentences highlighted by the end of it. And you really break it down to this three-page story they’ve been holding on to, right? So it could be:
“I spoke to Sean. Sean said, ‘I am a coach.’ That’s it. Everything else I made up.”
“Sean didn’t look interested in me when I was talking.”
“He didn’t think I was good enough because I have books to shovel behind me,” or whatever else it is—all fabricated.
Now, here’s the great news. So again, this is to somebody that might be going through a hopeless time. That’s just a story.
You get to rewrite it any way you want and start embodying that new story that you’d like and get rid of the old one. So that could turn into:
“I was talking to Sean. He’s an amazing cognitive behavioral therapist, one of the best in the world, and he took an hour out of his time not only to help me but to help all of our listeners and men across the world. Sean must think I’m brilliant.”
You know, whatever. I could write that story any way I’d like to. And we just get to get the optics on the story itself. In other words, recognize, Hey, this is the story I’m telling myself. This is what I’m making it mean. Now, is this serving me to my highest level or not? And if it’s not, let’s chuck the story.
Sean Stiller 54:50
Yeah, you’re right in line with my training in the way I look at these things. Absolutely. That’s brilliant. I also love the idea that you see that there’s such a small portion of it that is literal or, as you said, exactly how you framed it, but based in fact. These are the actual facts. These are the things that are actually there. A lot of the other parts are just colored within the story. Yeah, and that’s what we tend to say to ourselves.
And the other thing about stories too is they become conditioned, yeah, so they become unintentionally or intentionally practiced. So, for example, we talked about my friend’s brother who unfortunately died. It could have been something that he was told by his father or even overheard his father say about surgeons. For example, Surgeons are special. They’re important people, etc.
And if you’re a surgeon out there, by the way, I do believe you are—there might be a surgeon listening or something like that. Actually, my father was a surgeon. But so, the thing is that these stories can then be processed from age five, six, ten, and then we repeat them, put them on automatic, repeat daily, etc., and now we have decades of conditioning.
So that’s another thing that we should talk about a little bit, is that, you know, with my clients that I’ve helped with suicidal problems—and I’ve had quite a few now over my history—once we start to modify, as you call it, the software, as I call it, their beliefs, or their thinking, once they start to develop new ones, we write them down. We put them in their phone, you know, they’ll dictate it on their voice memo, whatever they need to do, put it on their mirror, repeat that thing every single day for the next 30 days, bare minimum, right?
Because we want to make sure that you’re practicing these new ideas because you’ve unintentionally practiced the crappy ideas, yep, you know, the bad story, or the bad beliefs, the bad software, etc., for so many, many, potentially months or years now. So we have to kind of over-learn in the opposite direction until it’s there with us automatically. You want it to be there automatically, and once we’ve got that, then now it’s part of your new programming, if you will.
Doug Holt 57:28
So, yeah, I ran a course we call master classes. They’re usually about four weeks for the men. We have hundreds of them now over these years, but one on unconscious commitments, with this idea that the results that you’re getting you’re committed to, consciously or unconsciously. And one of the things I like about what you said while we’re doing this is shining a light on the conscious.
Are you making an—do you have intention with what you want and what you’re doing, or are you doing this unconsciously or unintentionally just because it’s a behavior pattern, right, that you’ve developed over years? Because if it’s a pattern, you’re doing it consciously or unconsciously, and so you’ve kind of absorbed it, if you would. And then you get to reprogram that, reprogram that patterning, that learned behavior.
Sean Stiller 58:17
And in my line of work, it could be something as simple as—we talked about depression—you know, I didn’t get the promotion, and I’m worthless. Yeah? Okay, by the way, there’s an underlying philosophy, or core belief, that your work equals your worth. Yeah? Do you hear that?
And that will come into that person’s schema, into their thinking, in almost all affairs. So when they talk to their friend, Hey, what is your job? What do you do? and stuff like that, What do you do? And they’re like, Alright, he’s here. That person’s there.
I’m using my hands up here to gesture that they’re of a higher sort of status than that person. And I don’t look—I don’t judge that person at all. I just know that that person has that belief, or that story, if you will, that they have practiced unintentionally, usually, for a long, long time. That’s what they have with them right now.
And they may want to know some of the advantages and disadvantages of holding on to that core belief. It might be useful for them to modify it a little bit, like, Hey, doing well at my job or getting this promotion is really important, but it’s not the end-all, be-all to my happiness. I refuse to make it that way. It doesn’t mean I won’t work my ass off. It doesn’t mean that I won’t stay motivated. I will, but I refuse to make myself miserable and put myself on this endless treadmill.
Now, practice that idea, you know, 100 times over and over again. And usually, these are ideas that don’t just sound good, but they’re ideas that are based in fact. They’re believable, you know, and that makes them a lot more useful to people.
Doug Holt 1:00:16
They have to be believable. I do something similar, and I’m conscious of time as well. But all I do is I tell guys, Hey, start stacking the evidence for this new belief. Just start stacking the evidence in your favor.
So if you got fired from your job, as per the example you used, start stacking evidence that you aren’t your work.
Hey, you know what? My kids said, “I love you.” I’m a good father too.
Or, Hey, you know what? I fixed the sink. I actually happen to be handy.
Make it as easy as possible to stack the evidence in favor of whatever belief system you’re trying to create. Because gosh, man, Sean, aren’t we so good at stacking all the evidence against ourselves?
You know, I’m a bad lover, a bad husband, a bad father, whatever that may be. It’s so easy to think that way. And just that slight paradigm shift can send somebody with social anxiety to someone who all of a sudden becomes an extrovert, right? Almost.
Sean Stiller 1:01:18
Absolutely, yeah, yeah. It’s so easy to do that. It reminds me of my old mentor, Dr. Aldo Bucha. He once told me, You know, about the only thing that comes easy to us as humans is trouble. Yeah? So, this stuff takes some work. You know, good emotional and mental health takes work.
If you want the natural tendency of human beings, it’s to do the things we talked about, where it goes astray. We make our strong wants. We turn them into absolute needs. We feel hopeless. Oftentimes, we have to work against those things, against the current of that emotional current that we have.
We have to kind of turn the oars around, turn the boat around, start rowing. And that takes, you know, five or ten minutes, or whatever. We have exercise regimens, right? We do that daily. We should be doing the same thing. I think it’d be useful to do that for a lot of us on a daily basis—to be able to focus on the things that are important to us, to be able to condition our useful beliefs, our useful stories, and to do it on a day-to-day basis.
No one programs us, and then we’re just, you know, we’re done like that. That doesn’t happen. It’s work that we need to do, just like anything else.
Doug Holt 1:02:42
I’ll leave one more comment out there just to piggyback on what you said. Like the men I work with, the first thing I have them do is share with me five wins every single day, just to get them starting to fit the neuroplasticity—to start thinking about winning versus failing.
And then we add on five things you love about yourself, five things you forgive about yourself, and start getting them into that routine of kind of reprogramming themselves. And as you know all too well, Sean, when someone starts focusing on wins, guess what happens? They start winning more, right?
But all too often, our society—we bond by complaining, right? Oh, geez, did you see the weather? That’s a bonding thing.
We have guys—you’ll like this—that are in a challenge right now in our group that are trying a Complaint-Free Challenge for 21 consecutive days. In my experience, it takes the average person years—not because you complain once, but because once you do, you go back to day zero. It is a very difficult challenge.
Someone wrote a book called A Complaint-Free World or Life, so we just modified it off that. But again, the whole idea—all the guys, you know, go in. Not all, but most of the guys are like, Son of a gun, I didn’t think I complained at all. I’m on day one still. And I’ve been through it. I get it.
But, you know, you start recognizing things, and again, you get those optics on what’s going on around you.
I’m going to wrap, Sean. First of all, thanks again for taking the time. I’d love to have you back on. There’s so much that, you know, we’ve noticed this right away, but so much you and I can talk about and discuss.
If men want to follow up, I’ll put your website—or have the team put your website information in the show notes, wherever they find this. But where can someone go to get that workbook that’s coming out? Where are they going to find it—on your website, Amazon?
Sean Stiller 1:04:31
It’ll be on the website. It’s going to be on Amazon. Again, we’re looking at mid to late March, where it’ll be published there, so you’ll be able to get it there.
And if you have any questions, you can also email me at Sean, and that’s spelled S-E-A-N, at CoastalCBT.com.
So, if you want to email me regarding the workbook, I actually have it with me. It’s done. I just need to get the thing published right now. We’re at the five-yard line. We’re ready to punch it into the end zone.
Doug Holt 1:05:05
Yeah. Oh, is that your—that’s your workbook too?
Sean Stiller 1:05:12
Yeah.
Doug Holt 1:05:12
The book I wrote a while ago. So I know how it is—that last, you know, ten yards, so to speak, is the toughest part.
Sean Stiller 1:05:12
Yeah, been a pleasure talking with you, Doug.
Doug Holt 1:05:15
Likewise. Thanks so much for what you’re doing out there, and thanks for coming on to help so many more men who are struggling, or at least bring this awareness to other men.
And gentlemen, for those of you listening, as I always say, In the moment of insight, take massive action. Sean’s given you loads of gold here.
Go back through. We talked about hopelessness to hopefulness and what you can do there. Share and send your identity. Sean’s given you, literally, a playbook on how to make some of these behavioral changes coming through there.
Make sure you grab his workbook and visit Sean’s site, and I’ll try to do my best to twist his arm and get him back here for you guys.
So guys, as you know, I’m always in your corner. We’ll see you next time on The Powerful Man Show.
