Episode #944
Too many couples get stuck in a cycle of waiting—waiting for their partner to change, waiting for things to get better, waiting for the right moment. But what if you made the first move?
In this episode, Doug and Erin Holt dive into the real dynamics of marriage, why so many women initiate divorce, and what men can do to step up before it’s too late. They break down the patterns that push couples apart, the hidden signals men often miss, and the power of taking ownership—without waiting for permission.
Whether your marriage feels disconnected or you just want to deepen your connection, this episode is packed with practical insights on leadership, trust, and building a stronger relationship.
🎧 Tune in and start leading today.
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Transcription
Doug Holt 0:00
It’s almost like you get into teenager mode, right?
“Well, I’ll change when you do this. I’m not going to connect with you. I went out and worked my ass off all day and provided, and you’re not greeting me at the door on your knees, worshiping the ground I walk on. Well, when you do that and start catering to all my needs, then I’ll be a better husband.”
And the woman is sitting over there like, “Well, when you start doing this, then I’ll be a better wife.”
And they just miss each other. Rather than one of them having the courage to step in and go, “You know what? I’m just gonna be the best version of myself.”
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of The TPM Show. I’ve asked my wife to stay once again and do another episode with us—the beautiful Erin Holt. Thanks for being here, babe.
Erin Holt 0:57
Hey, I’m here!
Doug Holt 0:58
I know you love being here.
Erin Holt 1:00
I do!
Doug Holt 1:01
We love having you here on the show. The guys absolutely love it. I know that you had a lot of topics prepared—things to talk about—but I wanted to throw you a curveball. Well, not really a curveball, but a question I get asked a lot from the man’s point of view.
And I’m gonna flip it around and ask from a woman’s point of view. Now, I don’t expect you to represent all women, by the way—so let’s give that disclaimer upfront, so all the men know this too. But on average—and since you do group coaching with women, you talk to a lot of them—on average, how does a woman know when it’s time to leave the marriage?
Erin Holt 1:25
Oh gosh. That’s a really big question. Thank you. Well, the first thing—the first thing that comes to my mind—it’s a feeling. I think this is different than how a man would know. For a woman, it’s inside. It’s a feeling. Because as women, we will try everything we can to connect and be with our partner, to stay in our marriages, and to keep our families together.
We are really, really about that. I mean, of course, I’m just going to say—unless there’s abuse or things like that—but we will exhaust ourselves to make it work. And I know—I’ve coached many women, and I’ve seen it in my own friends—we get to a point where something inside of us shifts.
Where we go: “Okay, I’ve been doing this. I’ve been trying. I’ve been doing the therapy, the coaching, all of it—for about five years now. And…” It’s just a switch inside.
And it’s like: “Okay, I’m done.” How that looks is different for every couple. But I know that’s what most women experience—at least from what I’ve heard from other women and my coaching clients.
If she feels like she has done a lot of work on herself and he is not willing—If she feels like there is no way forward where both people can be themselves—Then, it becomes an unhealthy situation.
Doug Holt 2:58
We know, statistically—Like, when we got married, we thought we were smarter than every other couple, right?
You know, 50% of marriages end in divorce, but nobody goes in thinking, “I’m going to be one of the 50% that ends in divorce.”
I’m a product of divorced parents as well, so I know that side of things—at least from a child’s point of view. We also know that 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman. That number goes up to 90% if she has a college degree or higher. Why do you think it is that so many women are initiating the divorce, versus the men?
Erin Holt 3:32
Gosh, I’ve heard different people debate this, and I am by no means an expert in this. I just think what I just described, I know, is the trajectory for women. We will pour our heart, soul, energy, effort, and whole being into trying to make a struggling marriage work—one that’s hard, one that’s in a dark place. I’m speaking for most women here, right?
Doug Holt 3:58
Sure, yeah.
Erin Holt 3:59
So, it’s like—we get to a point where we hit the bottom of the well. There’s nothing left to give. And we also realize, “Nobody is coming to save me except for myself.” Usually, it’s at that point where she’s just like, “I’ve done everything that I can from my perspective, and nothing has changed. So… it’s time to leave.”
Doug Holt 4:21
So, if I can interject here—something I’ve noticed… The Powerful Man has been around for almost eight years now. That’s a lot of trajectory. We have thousands of men inquiring every single month. And there are two patterns I’ve recognized—well, a couple more than two. I kind of joke that even a moron could recognize these patterns because they’re so obvious. There’s a group of men who come to us when it’s too late, right? They’ve waited and waited and waited. Now, within that group, some of those guys can turn it around. We’ve actually had men get divorced while going through the program—because their wife had already checked out. And then—because he’s finally making real changes—they end up getting remarried again.
Why do you think that is? And I know, when we were going through our dark times, your perception was that I probably wasn’t doing anything. But I also didn’t want you to know I was doing stuff. Why do you think that is? Because I don’t think the men know that their wife is in this state. They just think, “Oh, I hope it gets better.” And so the guy—what I did was, I was quietly doing my own thing. And you were quietly doing your own work. It’s a recipe for disaster, by the way. It’s a recipe for disaster. I would say about 50% of the men who join The Activation Method for relationships don’t tell their wives. We also have The Activation Method for self, which is for guys who are just stuck in their lives. We’ve been doing both of them for a very long time.
Erin Holt 6:04
Here’s what I have to say about that. If we’re just going to tune into the highest version of ourselves as humans—our relationships are a mirror. You come together with your partner for a reason. At first, we all think it’s because, “Oh, they’re amazing!” And they are! But the truth is—your partner is going to trigger your deepest wounds, way deeper than anybody else ever will. Now, you can use that as a healing ground—as a way to grow. If you go in knowing this, then your relationship can be a cauldron for some of the biggest growth of your life. But that requires deep honesty and transparency. And that means sharing what’s coming up for you sooner rather than later, sharing what you’re scared about, sharing what you’re doing, what you’re up to.
Hiding secrets—of any kind—in any relationship is never going to work out the way you want it to. It literally stunts the growth of a relationship. And not just any relationship—the one you want the most connection and most intimacy in. And it’s not that you’re a bad person for doing it. We all have little things we think, “Oh, I’ll just tell a little white lie. I’ll keep this from them so I don’t hurt their feelings.” But actually, it does more harm than good.
Doug Holt 7:16
I think sometimes guys are in such a bad place that they just wait too long. The most common thing I hear from men when I meet them in person—which is my favorite thing to do—is this: “Man, I’ve been listening to the podcast for one year… two years… three years… before I actually took action.” Or, “I tried to, but something happened.” Or, “I missed my appointment with an advisor.” And they wait so long that by the time they actually join and take action, it’s like trying to repair a boat while it’s sinking. They’ve waited so long that, by the time they jump in, it’s already really bad.
But when they do join, what happens a lot of times is some marriages get fixed in a week. And it’s not because of some magic thing we do. It’s because, finally, the wife is like, “Oh, thank God—he’s doing something.” Like, he’s actually showing he cares enough to take action. And it’s not necessarily the work itself—it’s not like our program works in a week. I mean, I’d love to think that what we do is the best in the world, but let’s be real—it takes time. You have to do the work.
So, do you think a lot of women—your girlfriends, the women you coach—when they see their man finally taking action to better himself, do you think the feeling is more like, “Finally, he’s doing something,” or is it more like, “Okay, he does care about our marriage, so he’s doing something—or at least, he’s trying.”
Erin Holt 8:36
I think it’s a blend of both, but it’s also like—how do I say this? Women, we live in the world of emotion and energetics. The biggest gift, if you allow it, from the feminine to the masculine is that we can hold space energetically and see the best version of you. Now, granted, women, we have to do this in a loving, kind way. But if you allow it, the feminine can hold space for you to rise into the best version of yourself. She can see your greatest potential. She can see where you’re self-sabotaging, doing things that are unhealthy, or filling voids with drugs, alcohol, porn, whatever it may be. And it’s really, really attractive and makes us feel safe when a man can lead himself well.
Leading yourself well means doing things like The Powerful Man, surrounding yourself with healthy men who are having really big conversations, doing wonderful things in their lives, or getting therapy, or whatever your thing is. But taking action to take care of yourself in a healthy way—that’s clutch right there. If your version of taking care of yourself is just going out to bars, drinking, and flirting with women, I can pretty much guarantee that’s not going to support your marriage thriving. Also, that takes us out of the role we want to be in and into a weird dynamic where we end up in a mothering role. We have the ability to see your highest self and intuitively know things about you that you might not even know about yourself. It’s really healthy for men to have a space with other men to work on themselves.
We all have things to work on—healing our shadows, processing trauma, learning techniques to truly support ourselves. When men have a supportive environment with other men and work through their stuff there, they can then come back to their woman and say, “Hey, I wanted to share this with you. I’ve been working on this thing, and I really have a different perspective on it for myself and the impact it might have had on you, and I wanted to clear that up.” That is very different from, “Oh, birthdays were always hard for me, so every year I ruin them, self-sabotage, and then blame you for not celebrating it well enough.” At a certain stage of life, if you’re not managing what happened to you in the past and dealing with it, you’re going to dump it all over your partner and your family. And honestly, it’s pretty irresponsible. It’s really important that you take responsibility for your own internal world.
That is what she’s wanting—because she doesn’t want to be in the role of mothering or caring for you when you’re not even caring for yourself.
Doug Holt 11:43
She wants to be your lover, not your mother.
Erin Holt
Yes.
Doug Holt
If I could, I’d reach through the TV—guys, if you’re listening to this, you should be watching this on YouTube or something, Erin looks great—but if you’re just listening, I’d shake you. I want to shake my former self. I used to listen to so many audiobooks and podcasts, going from one to the next to the next. I call it educational masturbation—just consuming and consuming without taking action.
Guys don’t have to join our program, but do something. And I think two things happen when a guy truly works on bettering himself. One, to your point, his energy naturally shifts. He’s investing in himself, so his stock is going up, and with that, his confidence rises. If he’s learning about relationships, he’s in the conversation of a great marriage, so he naturally picks up on things. And if it’s a good program—and I hope it is—there are several out there. We’ve had plenty of men who come to us after trying two or three other programs. So I know there are some that don’t work, but when a guy actually does the work, his energy changes.
The second thing is, his wife sees his stock rising. She sees he’s investing in himself, and she starts thinking, “Okay, he’s finally reaching his potential.” Or at least, “I’m getting a better man out of this deal.” Not that women are just that pragmatic, but she also sees, “He cares enough about me and our family to try.” Even if he’s not perfect, just knowing that he’s trying to be better must give a lot of women hope.
Erin Holt 13:20
A lot. And a lot of relief. There’s going to be some sort of tension that releases in a woman. Many men probably experience this differently, but I know for women, when there’s a lot of disconnection, a lot of snarky comments, or if she’s worried he’s cheating, or that he’s super flirty when she’s not around, or not honoring her and the relationship—whatever it may be—she carries tons of tension in her body. That energy is going to come off as defensiveness and protection toward him. One of the most attractive things about a man—actually, two things—is his leadership from a place of love and devotion for her and…
Doug Holt 14:07
Hey guys, I wanted to interrupt this episode because it dawned on me that many of you aren’t aware that we actually have a book on How to Save Your Marriage Without Talking About It. Thousands of men have read it and reviewed it, and I want to give you the opportunity to do the same. If you’re interested, go grab it. It’s a short read, but it’s helped a lot of men just like you. Maybe you’re not interested in The Activation Method yet, but this is a small step that can really turn things around for you. We have it priced as cheap as Amazon will let us, so you have a resource you can use right now to start getting results in your marriage. Now, let’s get back to the episode.
Erin Holt 14:43
His backbone—his honor for himself and for her. She wants to know that he has the emotional and physical strength to honor her, to defend her, to stand strong for their family and children. If you’re one version of yourself when you’re around her, but a totally different version when you’re out in the world—she can’t count on you. And that is not going to lead to the kind of relationship you say you want.
Doug Holt 15:17
I talk about this a lot. I’ve mentioned it many times—Colton, who does our show’s production, and I were in a room with a husband and wife. The man went through the program, and when he said, “Hey, I’m gonna spend the money and take the time to take this course,” she was like, “Well, no, you’re not.” And he responded, “No, I’m doing this.” She later said that as he walked up the stairs, she remembered thinking, “Damn, that’s sexy.”
Even though she was saying no and he went against her words, I think she understood that he was steadfast—that “I’m doing this.” And she felt the energy behind it—“I’m doing this to better myself and our family.” So I see that side of it. I’ve talked about how 50% of the guys don’t tell their wives, but what we don’t talk about very much is the other 50% who take a stand. They draw a line and say, “No, I’m saving our marriage. I’m leading this. I’m going to lead myself and my family. I’m going to do this no matter what. I’ll find a way to pay for it. I’ll find a way to carve out the time. This is going to happen.”
I talk about that a lot with guys. Earlier in the week, we did a show with Chris Hansen—you know Chris—and he was reading user questions. One of the questions was, “How do I ask for something from my wife without sounding needy?” I said, “What’s the energy you’re bringing it with?” If I go, “Um, Erin… um… do you think it’s okay if I…?”—you wouldn’t like that. Because I wouldn’t be like that. That’s not me. But if I say, “Hey, baby, I’m going out with the guys on Tuesday. Is that gonna work?”—that’s totally different. I’m just checking in because you’re my wife, I love you, and I forget schedules a lot. I’m checking in with you to make sure it works, just like you check in with me when you say, “Hey, I’m going skiing with the girls.”
It’s not a permission thing—it’s a we’re doing life together thing. It’s a respect thing. But barring any major event, I’m going out with the guys on Tuesday, and that’s what’s going to happen. Or you’re going skiing with the girls. So, when we talk about neediness, we also talk about this idea that if you’re a guy listening to this, and you’re trying to better yourself, and you’re getting pushback—you just have to push through. And you’re saying, and this other woman showcased it, that it’s a sexy thing. Because now, the man is leading his life.
Erin Holt 17:38
He’s leading himself, which means he can lead you. Yeah, she can trust that you will. Because the thing that you’re doing, if you join a program like this, is healthy. It’s not another guy’s weekend where you’re just going out and getting wasted for three days, fishing or whatever. And there’s a place for fun weekends, of course—I’m not saying that’s bad—but this is something healthy that’s going to bring richness to your life, to yourself, and to her.
Doug Holt 18:04
I’ve got another question for you. I love that, by the way, I agree. Are there any couples that you know, in our friend circle or your friend circle—so I’m broadening it more—where the woman is unhappy in the marriage, and the husband doesn’t seem to know?
Erin Holt 18:25
Yes.
Doug Holt
Who are they?
Erin Holt
Yeah, yeah. And it’s unfortunate, right? Couples get so distant. And I’m not a man, but from the woman’s perspective, there are many things that go into it. The typical pattern is that the husband checks out. And it’s like, “I’m doing really well. I’m providing the money. I’m working my ass off, so you should appreciate me—check that box.”
Doug Holt 18:58
Yep.
Erin Holt
Yeah. And she’s starving. And he’s starving in his own way too, right?
Doug Holt
Sure.
Erin Holt
I’m not denying that.
Doug Holt
It’s almost like you get into teenager mode, right? “Well, I’ll change when you do this. I’m not going to connect with you. I went out and worked my ass off all day and provided, and you’re not greeting me at the door on your knees, worshiping the ground I walk on. Well, when you do that, and you start catering to all my needs, then I’ll be a better husband.”
And the woman is sitting over there like, “Well, when you start doing this, then I’ll be a better wife.”
And they just miss each other. Rather than one of them having the courage to step in and go, “You know what? I’m just gonna be the best version of myself.” I remember when we were going through our stuff—this is off-topic a little bit, but I’ve talked about this before—I remember running on the beach in San Diego, just completely resentful of you. I was running, the waves were crashing, the saltwater was hitting my face, and I was mad. And I was thinking, “Okay… have I been the absolute best husband I could possibly be for 30 days consecutively?”
And the instant answer was, boom—“No.” I was like, “Shit.” And I had that realization—“Okay, maybe I can’t blame this all on her, because if I haven’t been the best husband I know how to be for at least 30 days, I don’t have a leg to stand on.” And at the time, The Powerful Man didn’t exist. There weren’t courses like this. I couldn’t find anything like it.
And I remember thinking—all that anger—I was basically talking to my former self, the version of me that might have been listening to this podcast back then. And I asked myself, “Have I shown up as the best version of myself for at least 30 days?” Just 30 days.
And when the answer came back no, that’s when I knew—it was my turn to stop blaming and start looking inward. And I thought, “Okay, let’s see what happens if I actually show up that way.” And it was hard. I remember slipping up time and time again, thinking, “Okay, that wasn’t the best version of what a husband would do—shit! I can’t even make it 30 days! What’s going on here?”
So when you quickly said yes about knowing couples like this, I assume there’s more than one, yeah?
Erin Holt 20:59
Yes, right? And the thing is, we’re not taught how to be in a relationship—first and foremost, with ourselves. Then, you bring two people together, each with completely different families, backgrounds, upbringings—maybe even different cultures—and you just expect it to work perfectly.
Doug Holt 21:18
And it’s like, the moment you say “I do,” all the problems are supposed to just disappear.
Erin Holt 21:20
Yeah, totally. And it’s such a common thing. We were going to talk about this a lot in The Activated Couple, but there are so many inverted marriages. We were there—where the woman is more in her masculine inside the relationship, not necessarily at work, but at home. And the man is more in his feminine. So she’s running the show, making all the plans, managing everything—the house, the kids, the finances, who’s doing what, who’s going where, managing, telling everybody what to do, holding it all.
And she’s tired. She’s exhausted. She’s resentful, angry, and burnt out. And she can’t trust you. Meanwhile, he’s just kind of checked out, like, “Cool, whatever. I’m just kind of… here. I’m not leading. I’m not in charge. I’ll just stay in my corner so I don’t cause any fights.” And everyone is miserable.
Doug Holt
Mr. Nice Guy, yeah?
Erin Holt
Exactly. And it’s miserable for everybody involved. Everybody is hurting. And it’s really healing to first heal your own relationship—to balance your own masculinity and femininity inside yourself. To really come to a place where you’re standing in your divine feminine or noble masculine, and you can honor that in your partner.
Doug Holt 22:27
Yeah. I think sometimes we need to sit down—not for this episode, but just for ourselves—and reflect on how we used to do things, the stories we used to tell ourselves.
Erin Holt 22:37
Oh, it’s night and day different.
Doug Holt
Yeah.
Erin Holt
Not even just age-wise, because when we got together, we were actually a little older than most people when they first start dating and get married. But the way we related to ourselves and to our relationship was just so young.
Doug Holt 22:54
Yeah. I don’t think I’d use those words. I know what you’re trying to say, but yeah—immature.
Erin Holt
Yes.
Doug Holt
Very immature. Wise in so many other areas, but in our marriage? No. And I don’t think we were alone in that. You felt like you were crushing it in every area except our marriage. I felt like I was absolutely crushing it in every area except our marriage. And I couldn’t figure out why that was.
And we were never taught. I think most people have this idea that relationships are like sex—nobody teaches you how to do it, you’re just expected to figure it out. Or managing money—same thing. You’re just supposed to know how to do it. “Good luck!”
We’ll teach you geometry. We’ll teach you algebra. We’ll teach you English. We’ll give you courses in economics. But we won’t teach you about relationships. We won’t teach you about money. And those are two of the biggest struggles people have in their lives—relationships and finances. And then, of course, health. And those are the three things that aren’t taught. Our kids aren’t getting educated in them—unless we teach them, which we do. It baffles me. What’s the reasoning behind that? Or is there even one?
Erin Holt 23:59
Yeah. And with that said too—it gets to me. It makes me emotional, thinking about the women I coach and the men you coach, the impact this work has on them. The massive ripple effect it has on their children. That’s why I do what I do. Men have a massive role in the family. Women are the heartbeat of the home. A whole, happy mom and a whole, happy dad—the impact that has on their child? There is nothing more important.
Doug Holt 24:30
I mean, this is way off-topic, but at the last event I led, I went off on a guy. He was so stuck in his head. You could see that he was blaming his wife, playing the victim card, rather than taking responsibility. And he had three young kids.
And he was too scared to do what was necessary to get to the place he needed to be. And this was an intense event—you know which one I’m talking about. I’m not going to mention much about it, but I remember saying, *”Dude, I’m pissed. I don’t understand why you aren’t angry right now, because I’m mad. And I’m mad at you—because if you won’t advocate for your kids, I will.” And he was just shook. But he needed that. He needed someone to shake him. And he’s a great guy—strong physically and emotionally—but he was so stuck, frozen in his pattern.
I felt called to be the guy to step up. And I didn’t physically shake him, but the way I said it—he felt it. And I felt it. I get teary-eyed even thinking about it. I told him, “Dude, you gotta do something. I don’t care what it is. Well, I do care what it is—but you gotta take action. And you gotta do it now. This is your last straw. For your kids’ sake.”
Our children—everyone’s children—pattern their parents. I see so much of your natural tendencies—just like your parents. And I’m sure you see the same in me. And sometimes those are good things. And sometimes they’re not so good things.
And I know for myself, some of my tendencies weren’t good. And I’ve worked hard for years to change them. And I’m not perfect. I’m still working. But at least I know what they are. At least I’m conscious of them.
People get to do this work. They get to advocate for their kids. I tell guys this all the time—“Hey, your marriage may not work out. Statistically? 50% chance it’s not gonna work out. But if you better yourself, your kids are going to get the knockdown effects.”
I have a guy—I shared his story with you, I won’t share it on this podcast—but he had a huge shift with his daughter. And I told him, “Here’s what I want you to do. You’re going to lead by example. This is a horrible situation, but here’s how we’re going to make it the best it can be. We’re going to attach it to your goals. And now you have all the motivation in the world to achieve those goals—because by doing so, you’re setting an example for your daughter.”
“Shine so brightly that you carry her out of her darkness.” I get so passionate about this. We say at TPM—and I don’t think a lot of people believe us when we say it—but we save the children by saving their fathers first. And with The Activated Couple, we’re going to be stepping into working with the wives, too—with you.
Erin Holt 27:16
Yeah, same thing. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen it—just getting the mother back connected to herself and the impact it has on her motherhood. It’s why I do what I do. More than anything else, the children are the deepest reason.
And now I’m thinking—maybe we should do The Activated Couple for sure, and maybe even a podcast. Like, little things that we do with our kids—practical things that we could help other people implement with their children at some point.
Doug Holt 27:45
I love these conversations with you. I know the guys get so much out of them. Thanks for coming to the TPM Ranch. I know you’ve got a busy day ahead, with things you want to do, so I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and your love with these men.
Erin Holt
Thanks for having me.
Doug Holt
You got it. Gentlemen, as I always say—in the moment of insight, take massive action. Erin just dropped so much knowledge here. I know we went all over the place with this, but the general consensus is this: If you want to know a woman’s point of view… If you want to understand how women think…
Men and women think differently. We’re biologically different. And yet, for some reason, society taught me growing up that we’re the same. We’re not. So take in a woman’s perspective. Re-listen to this episode. Take some notes on what Erin’s talking about. And if you’re in a position where you can be in the car, or throw this up on YouTube, put it on your TV, and sit down with your partner—your wife—and watch this episode together, do it. Get some insights. Have a conversation about it.
Especially if you’re in a place in your marriage where it feels tough to find things to talk about. If it’s just day-to-day conversations, nothing deep or significant, and you’re not sure how to break through that, then instead of just throwing out a random question, use this as a vehicle to stimulate conversation. Use it to create connection.
And if you’re not there right now, I get it. We’ve been there. There were times in our marriage when we didn’t want to talk to each other at all. But we made it to the other side—because we did the work. And that’s what you have to do.
You deserve more than average. I always say this—I’ve got a poster on my wall that reminds me: “You have one ticket to this game, this event we call life. One ticket that’s guaranteed. I don’t know if there’s another one, but we have this one.” So you have to play better than average. Guys, you just have to. You deserve it. Your kids deserve it. Your wife deserves it. And the world deserves your light and your energy. We’ll see you next time on The Powerful Man Show.
