The Power of Connection: Unlocking Interdependent Relationships

Episode 1147

Most men are taught that being independent is a good thing.

Figure it out yourself. Handle your own problems. Don't rely on anyone else.

For a lot of successful men, that mindset has helped them build businesses, lead teams, and create results. But what happens when the same strength starts creating distance in the relationship that matters most?

In this episode, Tim Matthews and Lawrence Davis have an honest conversation about self-reliance, vulnerability, trust, and why so many men struggle to let their partner fully into their world. They share personal experiences of keeping people at arm's length, fearing weakness, and learning that real connection isn't built through independence alone.

You'll hear why many men unknowingly reject support, how self-reliance can turn into isolation, and why emotional intimacy requires a different kind of strength. Tim also shares how learning to move from independence to interdependence transformed his relationship and helped him create deeper trust, connection, and partnership.

If you've ever felt like you're carrying everything on your own, struggle to ask for help, or find yourself withdrawing when things get difficult, this conversation will give you a new perspective on what strong leadership in a relationship really looks like.

If you're noticing distance, frustration, or a lack of connection in your relationship, get access to The Powerful Man's free training. You'll learn why relationships lose trust, intimacy, and connection over time, and what you can start doing differently today to rebuild it.

Get the free training here: https://thepowerfulman.com/scales

Transcription

Lawrence 0:00 I used to pride myself on being a rock, an island. A fear of being seen as being weak.

Tim Matthews 0:05 But the independence can't come at the cost of the interdependence.

Lawrence 0:08 I was unwilling to rely on anyone else.

Tim Matthews 0:10 Because the relationship exists in the gray.

Lawrence 0:13 I didn't actually know what I needed, so how could I ask? Because I didn't.

Tim Matthews 0:17 But the openness piece, that's not weakness. That's strength. That's courage.

Lawrence 0:22 You voicing it, that's leadership.

Tim Matthews 0:24 In a thriving relationship, one plus one equals 11.

Lawrence 0:27 That's real masculine leadership.

Tim Matthews 0:29 The walls are down.

Tim Matthews 0:41 Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the TPM Show. I am your host, Tim Matthews, joined by an incredible man, Mr. Lawrence Davis, also known as Wild Card. Why are you laughing over that?

Lawrence 0:55 Because I'm just so happy to be here with you, Tim.

Tim Matthews 0:58 That's bullshit. Why are you laughing?

Lawrence 1:01 Because I've got no idea what you're about to say, and this whole episode is going to be new to me. Yes.

Tim Matthews 1:07 Are you a nervous one?

Lawrence 1:08 Yes.

Tim Matthews 1:09 Okay. Would you describe yourself as an independent guy?

Lawrence 1:17 Yes. I used to pride myself on being a rock, an island. It's a weakness if you have to rely on anyone else. I still do that from time to time. I would say I'm very independent.

Tim Matthews 1:31 In what ways has it worked for you?

Lawrence 1:36 Hasn't really. I think actually the most powerful times I've experienced have been in collaboration with other people. You can't run a business on your own. My development, my personal development within TPM, has been through The Brotherhood and the relationship with the brothers. But I still find it hard to ask for things, to be reliant on somebody else.

Tim Matthews 2:21 And why? Where do you think that comes from?

Lawrence 2:25 A fear of being seen as being weak, as needing somebody else, needy, or as needing to be helped out. So you've got to remember, I'm a soldier. I came from a background of being a soldier, and it was drilled into us to make sure that our equipment was stowed away and everything was sorted, the weapons were cleaned, everything was right, and everyone had to be responsible for their own stuff, you know? When you fell asleep, all of your bags were packed, ready in case you got bugged out in the middle of the night. So it was really important that you didn't put a burden on other people around you to have to sort you out. People like that were hated because somebody was always having to carry their kit for them or clear up after them or whatever. So it was a conditioning from an early age. I joined the army at 16 and I was there until I was 30, so it was heavily conditioned to be independent and self-reliant.

Tim Matthews 3:42 What do you think the difference is between independence, being independent, and being selfish? Like, do you feel like there is one?

Lawrence 3:55 Oh, I do. Now I see people around me wanting to help me and me rejecting their help because I can do it myself, and then feeling left out, cut out from that. So I think that can be a bit selfish. I think if you're always the person giving if I'm always the person giving out and never the person receiving then no one else has got the opportunity to give. So I guess that’s selfish of me.

Tim Matthews 4:28 You know, I’d probably say this topic independence and selfishness is probably one of my biggest weaknesses.

Lawrence 4:40 Really?

Tim Matthews 4:40 I think so. And I’ve only become increasingly aware of it over the past couple of years. So I kind of grew up like an only child in some respects. My sister’s seven years older than me, and when I was about maybe seven years old, we moved from one side of Leeds to the other, and she didn’t ever really move with us. She ended up staying with a friend so she could stay at the school she was at, but there were also other things going on within the family that she wasn’t happy with and hadn’t been happy with for quite some time. So she spent a lot of time outside of the house.

So from as early as I can remember, I just learned to become very self-reliant. My mum and dad had a lot of issues within the marriage when I was young, so I think my mum was probably emotionally a little bit preoccupied, understandably so, with trying to deal with that situation. I think that just added fuel to the fire of my self-reliance. I think I learned to self-soothe quite a lot and learned to take myself off and occupy myself or figure things out.

And as I grew up, I think it just became more and more of a thing. I can remember the desire to make money just being there from such a young age, whether it would come out in me going out and washing cars just to make some money at 11 or 12, whether it was getting a paper round two paper rounds as soon as I was old enough to get one, and getting the biggest paper round so I could get paid the most, and then just getting a part-time job when I was a teenager, but always doing overtime, working, working.

So there was a strong drive that I had, but a lot of it was also self-reliance as well. I wanted to be independent. I didn’t feel like I could rely on people, which I don’t think I’ve ever verbalized it in that way, but I think that’s how I felt. I didn’t feel like I could really rely on people.

When I played sport, I was good at football. I was the captain of the team. I was a good team player at times I could be but I think part of what the manager liked about me being captain was the fact that I’d lead by example, like the standards I’d hold for myself. But I don’t think it’s because I was a great team player per se.

So fast forward to now and my relationship with Amelia. I think one of the things that was an issue for me for a while was not taking her into consideration. Whether that’s because I thought her problems weren’t really that big and mine were bigger, so she could figure hers out on her own; whether it’s because I felt more important than her, so my problems were more meaningful because you get it, right? You know the story: breadwinner, all that kind of stuff, lots of stories. Her and I have spoken at length about this.

But I think it was hurtful to realize that I was being selfish. It was a really tough pill to swallow because I never would have hated being described that way as somebody that didn’t care or whatever it may be and therefore hurting and impacting the people I love. But I think part of that was just a function of the way in which I grew up and being independent and being self-reliant.

Lawrence 9:16 Because that independence must have brought you some reward. Like the team captain there were positive things about being

Tim Matthews 9:26 100%. This is why I asked you, how did it work for you? You said, “Oh, I don’t think it did.” Well, for me, it did in terms of being a self-starter. I’ve worked for myself since I was in my early to mid-20s, and that’s all because of this independence.

So in a lot of respects, it’s gotten me into some incredible positions in my life. Professionally, it worked for me really well up until a point. Personally, looking back, I don’t think it’s ever worked for me. But in particular with Amelia, it’s really held me back.

Because independence can be good if it’s balanced with interdependence. But the independence can’t come at the cost of the interdependence. And one of the things I’ve had to learn is how to become interdependent. So rather than being two individuals in a relationship, I’ve had to learn the interdependence piece to lean in.

Everything we were saying on the last episode, right? Where you turn toward one another versus away from one another. Me going into the cave is an example of me being independent. There’s a problem in the relationship. I’m going to take myself off. I’m going to try and figure it out myself. I’m going to come up with a plan myself. And then I’m going to return to the relationship with my plan that I’ve not even consulted Amelia on, and I’m going to work my plan. And when that plan doesn’t work which invariably it didn’t then I’m going to get defeated, I’m going to get frustrated, I’m going to start blaming the relationship, I’m going to start blaming her. I’m going to start saying, “Well, maybe this is just…” I’m trying my best, I’m doing all the things.

I remember the first time I said this to Amelia: “I’m doing all these things.” I listed them off. And she said, “I haven’t asked you to do one of those.” Shit, you’re right.

But the point with this I want to explore this, and I think it might land for some of the guys I think a lot of our guys would identify themselves as being very independent and very self-reliant. A lot of them have started businesses out of this position of not wanting to rely on others and wanting to be away from the situation they were in whereby they couldn’t trust people to be there for them or whatever it may be. So they’re going to trust the one person that’s always going to be there for them themselves. And therefore they can count on themselves because that is completely within their control. So they’re going to push ahead and build and build and build.

However, any strength can become a weakness. And the moment at which the independence becomes a weakness is when it comes at the cost of the interdependence. And this whole idea of the relationship being the thing that happens in the space between two people that’s also where the interdependence lives.

Lawrence 12:57 Oh, I’ve got so much to say on this now. Okay, so firstly, it’s really interesting to take this, because I think a lot of people in the movement, where they get where they lose themselves in a relationship are coming from a codependent environment and trying to learn this interdependence. So it’s almost like they’ve smothered the space between them, and now they’re having to separate but keep that interdependence so they keep the thing alive, not just run away from each other.

And this is the other side, almost the other end of that spectrum, where you’re fiercely independent because you’ve built stuff on your own, and now you’re having to accept that somebody else is part of your relationship. Like you were saying before, the whole kind of me-you relationship three things in this relationship.

And just as you were talking there, I thought, wow. I have a consultancy company, and up until 2010 I had my first company when I left the army. It was a consultancy company, and during the credit crunch it went down, it went under. We took another business that I had and started this business that I have now. And for 10 years, because of the failure of that business, I was unwilling to rely on anyone else. I was a solopreneur. It was just me and a couple of guys working for me, and I refused to hire staff again. I refused to take on, to rely on anyone else. As far as I was concerned, if it was a success, I’d get all the kudos, and if it was a failure, I only had myself to blame, and I didn’t have to rely on anyone else.

And I held out for 10 years. I made a good wage, and I like to think I’m good at what I do, but I bumped along making a living, not really building a business. And it was only really when I was talking earlier about the business seminar that you held when I first started TPM and how that kind of changed my thinking. I started to open myself up to the possibility of trusting other people in the business.

It was a nerve-wracking time. I was very nervous about, “I don’t want another failed business. I don’t want to rely on somebody else. Other people don’t work as hard as I do. You can’t expect other people to work as hard as you do as the founder.” So that kind of development from independent into allowing other people to come in and help you is really powerful in business. But even more so it’s on steroids when you talk about it in a relationship, because you can’t really have a relationship

Tim Matthews 15:55 No, because you keep everyone at arm’s length. Intimacy is “Into Me See.” I love that saying. And you know that physical intimacy typically will never exceed the level of emotional intimacy. Yes, it will in the beginning of a relationship, arguably. Even in the beginning, there’s a hell of a lot of emotional intimacy, but there are more hormones and things at play that can spike the physical side.

But in a long-term relationship, in a marriage, typically the physical side will never exceed the emotional side. The more emotional intimacy there is, the more it unlocks the physical side. And the emotional intimacy can only take place in that space of interdependence, where you’re letting the other person in, where you’re sharing more of your world, where you’re sharing your fears, concerns, hopes, dreams, allowing yourself to be seen, sharing things you’re unhappy about.

Now, how you bring them over is important. We spoke a little bit on the last episode about playing in the gray and how, as men, I think it’s very easy to live in absolutes, because in the business world there are a lot of absolutes. You can see a scorecard, you can see a P&L. Everything’s black and white, and it’s absolute. It’s kind of yes or no.

And there are other habits that businessmen take over that work well for them in business, but they take them into the relationship and they work against them. And this is one of them the absolutes. Because the relationship exists in the gray. The gray is where it can get messy. The gray is where you figure things out together. The gray is where you learn to see one another again and again and again.

I was on an office hours call on Monday, and Gold Art was on there, a bunch of the other guys, and this was a topic learning to play in the gray. And it’s scary, because in order for you to truly allow for interdependence to take place, you’ve got to take a risk. You’ve got to allow the other person in. And depending on what they do with that, you put yourself in a position where you could get hurt.

So a lot of men that we work with, a lot of guys in the movement that come to us, they’ve gone into this position of keeping the wife at arm’s length because they’re afraid that if they fully let her in and therefore fully experience interdependence, she’ll reject them and leave. However, by keeping her at arm’s length, the rejection then takes place anyway. She feels rejected typically because she feels a distance, and she ends up leaving anyway. So the distance is created regardless.

And typically all the men just want love and connection. All the guys that we work with most people on the planet one of the core needs is love and connection. And again, it exists in the gray. It exists in the interdependence.

Lawrence 19:37 The fear is manufactured inside the story that you tell yourself in your head. Because, like you say, either you put yourself out there and take the risk and be vulnerable and risk getting hurt, or you don’t. Either way, if you don’t, you stay withdrawn. She feels that. She goes, or you go. Or you make the risk, and you’ve got a 50/50 chance of actually getting something great. Probably higher than that. I wouldn’t want to put statistics on it.

Doug Holt 20:03 Hey guys, I just want to share something with you. I’m sure we can both agree that in order to fix something, you need to know what’s broken. And not only do you need to know what’s broken, but you need a step-by-step methodology on how you can fix it. That’s the easiest way to do it, right? Otherwise, you’re going to be toiling with things.

That’s why I created a free training. A training that not only shows you how you got to where you are where your relationship is missing that love, respect, admiration, and even intimacy that it used to have but how you get it back. How do you retain that? Where your wife’s looking at you the same way she used to look at you when she said, “I do.”

I don’t know about you, but for me, when my wife looks at me like I’m her man, that feels like I can conquer the world. And I want that for you. Simply go over to thepowerfulman.com/scales. That’s thepowerfulman.com/scales. And I have a free video training for you. You can just click play and see if this resonates for you.

Now, back to the podcast.

Lawrence 21:06 Do you think, did you have a realization of the fact that it was selfish, and did that then spur you on to explore interdependency more? Do you think that would be something that the guys in the movement could if you started seeing it as selfishness? Because no one wants to feel like they're selfish, right? I don't want to feel like I'm being selfish, and that kind of perspective on that would make me then feel like, well, okay, I don't want to be selfish, so I'm going to open up a little bit more.

Tim Matthews 21:37 The selfishness was an easy one to stop, because once I became aware that I was doing it, I did not want to be that person, so I just stopped doing it. But the way in which I saw it honestly I set alarms to go off on my phone, and the alarm, I think it still goes off on my phone to this day, and it went off, I think, three or four times a day. Oh, I'm pretty sure. Let me have a look. It is 8:30 in the morning. “How will you take Amelia into consideration today?”

Lawrence 22:12 Wow.

Tim Matthews 22:13 12:30: “Have you taken Amelia into consideration yet?” 5:00 PM: “The day is almost over. How have you done with taking Amelia into consideration?”

So I set those alarms to go off on my phone initially, and obviously made sure I caught you all up on the chat of intentional living that we give all the men. That was a big focus on there, and I had habits in my calendar to make sure that I did it, because I wasn’t going to be that way, but I just didn’t have awareness to begin with. I didn’t realize I was being received in that way. Once I became aware of it, I obviously went into it more and wanted to figure out, well, why am I doing this? But I also wanted to make immediate change.

The interdependence was the harder one, because the interdependence required more vulnerability. The stakes were higher. And this is the one that, for me, I can still sometimes struggle with, because it’s the same thing it’s vulnerability, and the stakes are higher. So while I’ll still turn toward her and I’ll still bring things over, it can still be scary.

And I think, will it ever go away? I don’t know. I mean, do I ever want it to go away? I don’t think I do. I’m okay with there being a healthy dose of fear around it, because I think it shows that I care. It shows that she matters to me. The relationship means something to me, and I’m going to bring something over that is going to unsettle things. It’s going to shake things up one way or another. I care about how she sees me. I think these are natural things and healthy things to think and feel in a relationship.

So the interdependence is kind of like going to the gym. The more I do it, the easier it gets. The stronger the muscle is. It’s never as bad as you think. You know all those things. And just like going to the gym, I’ve learned to fall in love with the process. So I can now fall in love with the process of the interdependence.

But I have a feeling I’ve not spoken to the guys about this I’ve spoken to them about being self-reliant and independent, and a lot of them resonate with that idea, but I don’t think they’ve necessarily put two and two together about how their independence can often rob them of the interdependence that is required in order to have the kind of connection that it is that they’re seeking in the relationship.

Lawrence 24:59 So does this tie into asking for your needs to be met? So is there an element of actually saying to your partner, “Actually, I need this,” and just having that discussion and allowing them to…? Like, so I’m really struggling with my new partner cooking for me. I can cook myself. I used to have a thing where, you know, you see guys of a certain age who have never cooked for themselves, they’ve always been looked after. When their wife goes away on holiday, they have to put up 12 packaged things in the fridge because they can’t cook. And I just thought, you know, if you can’t cook for yourself, then maybe you should just starve. That’s a terrible thing to say, but you know what I mean get a life and actually be able to fend for yourself in the world.

So that was my thing. And now I’ve got a woman who really enjoys cooking for me and wants to do it as a service to me, and I’m like, that’s really difficult. I’m hovering around the kitchen like, “Anything I can do?” “No, just go and sit down.” “Sit down? Relax?” “What? No, no, there must be something I could be doing. Should I take the bins out?” I just feel really sort of antsy and nervous about it. And then you just have to go, “No, it’s okay. You can do something for me.” I find that really tough, but it’s something I’m working on.

Tim Matthews 26:30 I think the self-reliance piece can then make it difficult at times to allow people to do things for you, because there can be a guilt that comes in, depending on the reasons for being self-reliant and the stories that are there and the experiences and such. But there can be a guilt that comes in.

So I think learning to enjoy it because you said it earlier we rob the other person of the experience that they might get from the giving. That might be a way in which they show love, or whatever it may be.

But to answer your question before, does asking for your needs to be met is that a form of interdependence? Well, in essence, yes, because you’re admitting in that moment there’s something that you desire that you can’t have met by yourself. There’s a vulnerability in that. There’s a putting yourself out there in that, because there’s a chance the other person may say no. Then what do you do with that? That’s where the gray area comes in get curious, ask more questions, see what’s going on there.

But for a lot of guys, they don’t want to really commit to what it is that they need, because I think they’re afraid that if they do, what will that mean?

Lawrence 28:09 And that leads me to think about where I was, where I didn’t actually know what I needed, so how could I ask? Because I didn’t. That’s a whole other topic.

Tim Matthews 28:23 But even that’s a great thing to lean into together, right? “Hey, I feel like there are certain things that I should need, and I just don’t know what that is. I know that might sound crazy, but I’d love to find out with you. Is that something you’d be open to? Is that a journey we can go on together?”

Lawrence 28:46 That sounds like a great conversation to have.

Tim Matthews 28:48 Great conversation to have. But it goes back to the point of, well, I need to know the answer and show up with the plan. Some things get to be figured out together.

Lawrence 28:59 Co-created.

Tim Matthews 29:00 It’s not weak, you showing up, and it’s not weak you showing up in that way. Again, it’s vulnerable. The weakness would be, “I have needs and you don’t meet them, and I do all these things. I work hard, I handle all this stress and all this pressure. I should be getting more out of the relationship.” The reactivity, the victimhood, the abdication that’s the weakness piece.

But the openness piece, that’s not weakness. That’s strength. That’s courage. That’s putting yourself out there. But I think leaning in like the interdependence leaning in with curiosity, accepting that you have needs that can only be met in relationship with another. Trust is a huge thing with the interdependence.

And maybe there’s been an erosion of trust in the relationship, which makes interdependence difficult. Maybe trust needs to be repaired. Maybe trust needs to be rebuilt. In a thriving relationship, one plus one equals 11. It doesn’t equal two. It’s two whole, complete individuals coming together, and they amplify and multiply one another. It’s playing the game of multiplication, not addition. It’s a different game. But again, that can only take place through interdependence.

Lawrence 30:37 And I think there’s a really key thing there that you mentioned then, which is trust. A container of trust has to be built, and it can’t just happen overnight. You can’t just say, “Right, I’m going to allow myself to trust you, and I want you to trust me implicitly.” That’s got to be built through consistency, through love, through showing up, through all of those things.

Before you can well, not before necessarily you can put yourself out there, can’t you, and not have that level of trust, and that’s a real vulnerability. But trust is so important, so important in a relationship. Emotional trust, having that baseline. A lot of the guys, they’ll be having difficulties with their wife, and they’ll be talking about a particular issue or topic, and actually it goes back to, “She doesn’t trust you enough to allow you in,” or “You don’t trust her enough to allow her in.”

That interdependence has to be based on a certain level of trust. And if you don’t have that level of trust, then it’s even more terrifying to put yourself out there and expose yourself and be vulnerable.

Tim Matthews 31:47 There has to be trust, or at least, to your point, the trust getting rebuilt. And if there isn’t trust, it gets to be talked about. And look, I’m saying this, I understand there are guys listening to this that are in different places within the relationship. Talking about a lack of trust might not feel like the best thing, but I can’t imagine a scenario where talking about a lack of trust isn’t going to be a good thing unless it’s already been spoken about and agreements have been made and somebody isn’t honoring the agreements. And obviously it’s understandable at that point why there’s a breakdown, because, well, we spoke about it, came up with a plan, we agreed to things, and you’re not doing it. At that point, there’s a different conversation that gets to happen, obviously.

Lawrence 33:06 For the majority of it, though, a conversation about a lack of trust is overwhelmingly going to be a leadership thing. It’s going to be a positive thing. You’re going to be able to, because you both know that there’s something missing, and I think this goes for anything in a relationship. You both know that there’s maybe a lack of trust, or “I’m not quite there with you in this area,” or whatever. But you voicing it, that’s leadership, because you both know it’s there, but it’s this unspoken thing that’s sitting there in the back of your relationship, and it’s eroding slowly, eroding quietly, eroding away at the basis of your relationship. And if you’re the one that takes the leadership and takes the breath and says, “Look, I just think we need to talk about maybe I don’t trust you necessarily as much as I should in this area here,” or maybe you don’t trust me about that, and having that conversation, at least you’re the one that’s bringing it to the table. You’re not being reactive and waiting for things to blow up, and then maybe it never gets spoken about, or maybe it gets turned into a weapon or something. So I think leading that conversation is always being ahead of the game, being aware. Our women are hugely more sensitive than us, in my experience.

Tim Matthews 34:29 Ten times.

Lawrence 34:31 They can see it first.

Tim Matthews 34:34 And see way ahead of us as well. We realize something that they saw months ago, weeks ago. Oftentimes we’re very late to the party. We think it was so insightful. We realize it. “I know what is going on. I know the answer.” Bring it over. “Well, I’ve been telling you that for weeks.” Oh, that’s what you meant. “Well, maybe if you framed it like this.” If you were to leave the listeners with three takeaways on how to improve the interdependence in the relationship, what would that be?

Lawrence 35:21 Well, the first thing is to take stock of where you are and what your needs are, so you know what your needs are and where they’re not being met, either by yourself or by someone else, or where you’re not letting her in. Really reflect on that. I think you need to be clear, roughly. Obviously the conversation can happen, and that can develop, and through that conversation things can come out of it, but I think having a start point where you can bring something to the table, I think that’s the most important thing. To say, “This is where I feel like I may not have been as open to you as I could have been,” and starting a conversation there. I think that’s the first thing take stock of where you are and then bring that to the table. Maybe that’s two things.

Tim Matthews 36:05 I would say for one of my second ones we’ll do three, you’ve done one I’d recommend for the guy to start with himself. If this is resonating, then look back. Why have you learned to be so independent? Where does that come from? How has that shown up in the relationship? How has it maybe shown up in past relationships? How has it meant that you’ve kept people at arm’s length, letting them in just enough so they can kind of get to know you, but not enough so they can really see you? Start to just dissect things. And if you believe there’s something there, I would recommend getting to Alpha Reset, because that is one of the most pivotal experiences that the guys go through in their life as it relates to building trust and letting go. It’s huge.

Lawrence 37:11 So I’d say my third one you’ve stolen my thunder a little bit I was going to say join The Brotherhood. Not necessarily you have to join The Brotherhood, but get other people around you. Find other people you can be accountable to. If it’s too difficult for you to open up into a real, authentic, interdependent relationship with your intimate partner, then just start with small steps. Have a real conversation with another guy. Get some trusted advisors around you, some people that can hold a bit of space for you and talk some truth, and just allow them to either say nothing at all or input into your life, and be open to accept that. I think that’s quite a powerful thing to do.

That’s what our pack calls on a weekly basis are. That’s what The Brotherhood meetups are. When we go away on trips and stuff, that’s what I value the most. We can go to some incredible places all over the world, and they’re fantastic, and the stuff that’s laid on is first class. But what everyone I speak to comes away with is, “I was seen by another guy.” It’s not a gay cult, but to be vulnerable with another guy it’s quite intimate but it’s a good starting point. You start off with guy stuff, but very quickly it can become, “What got you into the movement?” “Well, this happened,” and then you’re into a conversation about your marriage, and then the other guy’s saying, “Well, what about this, and what about that?” Just allowing someone in, even if it’s not an intimate partner, I think is a good starting place.

Tim Matthews 38:57 I like that. Final one I would say is come clean. If you realize that you’ve been doing this and I know there are guys who listen to this that have been in the movement quite some time this piece of advice isn’t one size fits all. I’ve got to imagine guys coming into The Activation Method, if they were about to do what I’m about to say, it might not be the best thing. But guys that have been in the movement a little while, I think this would work really well.

When I say come clean, if you feel as though you’ve been keeping your partner at arm’s length and you’re beginning to realize why, come clean. But make light of it. Make it a little bit of a jest. Say it as though, for example, “Amelia, I realize I’ve been doing this really crazy thing. For some weird reason, I’ve been keeping you a little bit at arm’s length, and I don’t know why. I love you. I want to have an incredible life with you, and I’m not going to do that anymore. So I’m sorry if you’ve felt any distance from me. Weird. I’m going to stop doing it.” And that can be as much for you as for them.

Now, it may go into a deeper conversation, and obviously in that scenario you might want to share more, but just getting the elephant out and really laying it on the table can work wonders.

Lawrence 40:43 That’s real masculine leadership, bringing that to the table first.

Tim Matthews 40:48 And I know a lot of men that do this, a lot of men that let their partners in just enough so they kind of like them, but keep them far enough out so they never get to see the real version of them. There’s always going to be avoiding the connection whilst that’s taking place, and true interdependence, true connection, true partnering can only take place when the walls are down.

Lawrence 41:23 Awesome.

Tim Matthews 41:26 So, guys, thank you for joining us on another episode of the TPM Show. We’ll catch you next time. Bye.