Episode #796
Are you struggling with pornography addiction and its impact on your relationships?
Do you worry about the effects it might have on your partner and children?
In a thought-provoking conversation, Doug, Mo, and Josh delve into the profound repercussions of pornography addiction on families, discussing its role in eroding trust, intimacy, and connection.
They explore the cycle of addiction, the objectification of partners, and the detrimental effects on children who witness the dynamics within the household. The conversation emphasizes the importance of taking ownership, seeking help, and fostering open communication within relationships to address the addiction and its underlying issues.
In this episode, you’ll learn about the complexities of pornography addiction, the steps to take toward recovery, and strategies for educating children about healthy sexuality in the digital age.
Through understanding, support, and action, there is hope for healing and rebuilding stronger, more fulfilling relationships.
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Head over to our BONUS page for special access to some of the deeper tactics and techniques we’ve developed at The Powerful Man.
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Transcription
Doug Holt 00:00
I think our society and men in particular, don’t see porn as causing as much potential problem as it may be. Even if they don’t aren’t “addicted,” it could also be their turning their desire, whether it could be pointing their desire towards their wife, the woman that they said I do to. Which I always make the analogy, you’ve made a commitment to this person, you said, you can’t sleep with anybody but me and that yet you turn away and you’re sleeping with your computer, right, so to speak. And she’s sitting in her bed by herself probably crying.
Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of the TPM show. I am greeted by two very special guests, and you guys are going to absolutely love this conversation. I have Josh and Mo with me today. Mo, you’ve known from the episodes previously. If you haven’t seen those guys, write that name down so you can go back and search. Josh is one of our key advisors here at TPM, helping men through the guidelines and the process to help them get their marriages better. Guys, thanks so much for being here.
Mo 00:59
Yeah, thanks for having us.
Doug Holt 01:00
Yeah, I don’t feel like I did you justice in the introduction as I was thinking about that as we go through. But it’s so hard because you guys spend so much time working with the men in the movement. And even people that don’t come in, one of the things I love about both of you is your passion, right, of just really serving men to their highest levels, whether they come through The Activation Method, or whether they’re just not the right fit, they always leave after talking to the two of you, individually or collectively, becoming better people. So thank you guys for all that you do.
Mo 01:28
Yeah.
Josh 01:29
Yeah, it’s super awesome to be a part of this, this movement. And Mo and I was just chatting in the main house just outside of the studio here about what makes a team member is that kind of desire to keep on it. Like we’re on calls with guys all day. And then I’m in the kitchen cooking bacon, and I’m listening to the podcast that you guys just did on intimacy. And we just, we want to be in it. We want to serve and we want it for ourselves, we want it for our wives, we want it for our kids, and we want it for all these men out there. Because we’ve been out there alone and it’s tough.
Doug Holt 02:01
It is. And I’ve been there too, my friend. Absolutely. Well, you guys have a really interesting conversation topic that you wanted to bring to the table. I’m really looking forward to this topic, because it’s not one that we cover very much, but yet it comes up time and time again. So I’ll let you guys kick it off. Josh, why don’t you start for us?
Josh 02:19
Yeah, so a big part of my journey to becoming a powerful man was realizing the power that pornography had over me. And so that’s been a journey that I’ve been on since I was age nine. I was exposed to pornography at age nine. And from the get go, it was secrecy, it then became a crutch. It then became how do I deal with anxiety, how do I deal with anger, how do I deal with rejection, boredom, constantly want to sleep, all of these things, it became the go-to and it became the primary tool. And I use it because it worked, and men use it because it works. It gets you that short-term relief. And then of course, that then evolves into patterns, into belief systems, into values, into coping mechanisms. And then later on when I discovered alcohol and marijuana, I was just like, well, these are great.
Doug Holt 03:13
Yeah. They work too.
Josh 03:14
They work too. And so you know, I went headlong into those. And that was 10-15 years of my life that was chaotic, to say a word. And again, like you said, it’s this underground dynamic that is always at play in some way, shape, or form. And from the woman’s perspective, from the man’s perspective, even the children, like it’s this unspoken kind of rot that sits in society at every level. And we’re just oblivious to it. I was part of another men’s movement, and I was working with one of the lead coaches there. And this guy has over 15 years of experience specifically in addiction, cocaine, the heavy ones, the kind of substance ones. And I said to him like, I really don’t feel comfortable with how I relate to pornography. And he was like, oh, like, what kind of porn are you into? He didn’t see it at all. And this is a coach trained in all of these modalities. And it just, it lies underneath so many of the problems that we see with men.
Doug Holt 04:16
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think it’s interesting. And I’ll come to you in a second here Mo because I’d love to get a woman’s perspective as it is. But with pornography, what I think is addiction in particular, is there’s so much shame around it. Whereas alcohol, there seems to be less shame because it’s a little bit more socially acceptable. As an example, as two men will get together and women might be the same way, we might talk about what we drink or even smoking pot or what have you. But we don’t talk about what porn we watch, right, or what things were into and that’s just taboo in most western societies.
Josh 04:53
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s worth making a distinction. And because it’s so un-discussed, men have a very limited ability to address their dependency. And so what I don’t want is for the guys that are listening to think like, okay, well, that’s bad and wrong. So I’m going to just stop that. And you know, it’s there for a reason. You have to find out why are you using it. Find out why. It’s easier to watch porn when you’re angry to distract yourself, then have that hard conversation with your brother, with your coworker, with your dad, with your wife, whatever it is. But if they don’t have those skills, which is what we teach in The Activation Method, and beyond that in The Brotherhood and Inner Circle, like they don’t have those skills, it’s the best tool they have. So we can’t just rip it out of their hands, because then they’re really going to be in a bad spot.
Doug Holt 05:43
Yeah. Yeah, I think it comes down to with whatever addiction it is, is it using you or are you using it? And not all of us are in the same place at the same time going through it. From our perspective, when we look at this, I guess, more holistically, and Mo I know you can’t speak for all women. We always bring you in here. You are the representative of all women across…
Josh 06:06
Disclaimer.
Doug Holt 02:19
Yeah. But I also think a lot of men would love to hear also. So many guys can relate to Josh’s story. But also what occurs from the female perspective when they find out that their man might have a porn addiction or what’s going on in that realm?
Mo 06:26
Yeah. I think for a lot of women, we want to see a guy leads. Like we walk in wanting there to be this strong partnership, wanting there to be this power and wanting trust. And oftentimes addiction with pornography is really linked to lying too. And so it, off the bat, if that’s what enters the relationship, that desire to trust and for him to lead can, and he lies about it, it can automatically set that woman’s intuition to say, oh, wait, should I not do that?
It kind of like cracks or breaks her to wonder, should I trust this idea that I innately want to be with him and watch him be powerful and watch him lead? To, but what if I’m not safe? What if he’s going to lie? What if I’m going to get hurt? And so as soon as that enters the picture, a woman’s mind will split in thinking, oh, wow, like, I’m not sure even if I can trust myself. I’m not sure if I can trust my gut. Because this person who promised to love me, be with me, care for me is now struggling in this place that he’s now lying about it, which makes it a lot harder to have compassion on.
But I know in my experience with other women, the desire, the true desire is to be like, hey, tell me because I’m here for you. I want to be 100% in your corner. I want to walk this with you. And I want to — I know that you struggle with things, I struggle with things. And if this is hard for you, then let me be on your team. Let me fight with you. But they can’t because they’re usually lying and they’re in shame about it. And that’s patterns from whenever it began, like for Josh, nine years old. And so I think that there is, yeah, I just think that there’s the desire to trust, but it gets stunted by the lying and not necessarily even the addiction, but the line that accompanies the addiction.
Doug Holt 08:19
And do you think that a lot of that comes from shame, which then, after shame, then there’s guilt, right? And then guilt usually leads to anger and fear. Do you think that cycle just then perpetuates time and time again?
Josh 08:31
Yeah, for sure. I mean, there’s what I came to understand about my relationship with pornography and the role that my wife took in that was inherently what happens with addiction, all addictions and pornography in particular, is that you’re numbed, and you’re hypersensitive. So it’s this paradox where you’re numbed, which means you need more and more aggressive pornography that turns you on. And at the same time you’re hypersensitive to any stimulus that it might be around the corner, because it’s there below the surface clawing at you, right?
So in that process of numbing, you numb your own feelings, you numb the seriousness of it, right? And then you buy into what the world says, It’s not serious. Everybody watches porn, it’s no big deal. You know, my dad used to get a brown paper bag, that’s not my story, but that’s the perception. And so then when our wives break down and they get emotional, and they tear themselves to pieces, and what is it about me, why don’t you, you know, all the ways in which men have told me that this happens. We have to realize that the wife is representing a part of ourselves that is so stunted that we can’t hear that part that’s crying out.
And so when we can actually stay present and to be present with your wife, when she’s falling down, you have to have the strength and the kind of living like a king that we do, so that you can receive that and you can realize how serious it is. Because when you know it’s serious, then you take it seriously then you develop the skills, so then you don’t need it. And then when you don’t need it, then that trust is returned to your relationship. And your wife can then respect you and just follow you in your strength and you get to soar, which is amazing.
So, it’s this dynamic of your woman when she breaks down to not go, just don’t overreact. It’s just porn, like, just come on, just chill out. It was one time. All that story is your defense around the seriousness of this thing, and how it’s destroying your marriage. You know? So, it’s quite a thing to accept that. But as we know, when you accept it, you can do something about it. Yeah.
Doug Holt 10:46
As I’m listening to you, I’m thinking about some of the men that I’ve worked with. And commonly a common thing a lot of guys say is they want to have more sex in their marriage, right? They’re not getting enough sex. So they turn to pornography. That would be the story that they would use. And then that turns into what I see as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Right? Because then they stop pursuing their wife as much as they were, and therefore she feels not desired. And we all know women needs to be seen, heard, and desired. And so therefore, the bedroom becomes a sexless oasis, if you will.
Mo 11:21
Yeah.
Josh 11:22
That’s the tragedy.
Doug Holt 11:24
It is, it is. And I think men don’t see that pattern coming up. If you don’t mind, talk about, you’ve been so generous sharing your story. When you discover that this was a pattern that wasn’t serving you, to your highest level, as we always look at things, how did this transform your personal life and or your marriage?
Josh 11:45
Yeah. So, I love that thing that Mo continue to reminds us about and the guys that she works with is what got you here, won’t get you there. So there’s layers to my recovery, right? There’s kind of stopped the bleeding in the ER, and that was working with a trusted source, like a coach, where you can unpack and understand. And for me, that was writing out the narrative of every memory I had of pornography and where I used it, why I used it. So really going in to the data and trying to figure this thing out, intellectually, just figuring it out.
Part of that was also just doing research. Like, what is pornography? Yeah. How big a part of society is it? How much money is made out of it? What do the performers feel about it? What are all these aspects of pornography? Let’s become a porn expert. Like I’m just a consumer. But if I go back upstream, and there’s an amazing podcast called The Butterfly Effect, which is all about how it tracks the story of the creation of the biggest website online and pornography, and how it was funded with seed capital.
And the five biggest sites were all brought into one name, and just like the corporatization of pornography, and how that just exploded into everywhere, because it’s an unfair fight. It’s not me versus myself, my will. It’s me versus millions and billions of dollars of industry and advertising, and all of that stuff. So when you understand that, that was an intellectual layer, that was about getting some kind of abstinence, going to start to see the gap and start to fuel the drive to fill that need and other ways, which was through connection and all the other ways in which men need to through friendship, through exercise, all those other better ways of meeting the need. So that was kind of layer one.
And then you’re moving into kind of like what is sobriety in terms of pornography? It’s not just not watching porn. That’s like you — [crosstalk] Yeah, you’re a dry drunk, you’re white knuckling. And I’ve been in the rooms with those guys, the AAA rooms where you got a guy who’s 20 years sober, or abstinent, but he is holding on by a thread. He’s like, I could go outside and drink a bottle of bourbon, he’s like by a thread. He’s hard. He’s fragile. But to really get to that place of letting go, that was kind of layer two, which was now skill development. What things, what actions do I need to be doing? Cool, I need to meet my testosterone needs in the gym. I need to meet my intimacy needs with closeness with my wife. I need to talk about the fact that whatever, all the relationship stuff, so that’s phase two.
And then phase three, for me, was very much a spiritual journey. That was very much about going to God and just saying, like, hey, just, can you take this from me? And I think what’s important for guys to understand is that there are consequences. If you’ve been watching porn for 15-20 years like I was, there are consequences. I still have intrusive thoughts that come in in the most inappropriate moments. And that is a consequence that I have to live with. It doesn’t trigger me, it doesn’t bring me to shame and all those things. Like now I just kind of laugh it off, because I know why it’s there.
But those are kind of the three layers that I went through in my journey, and it’s been about five years since I’ve felt the compulsion to look at pornography. And now I’m kind of trained like a monk. Like if I see that image, it’s just like eyes closed, you know. And almost like hunting, you got to be able to see that temptation from 400 yards off, just the white of the tail, you know that there’s something there and you know what to do about it. If you wait until that thing is right here.
Mo 15:38
You’re lost.
Josh 15:39
You’re lost. You already lost the race when you decided, hey, I just want to check out the new yoga mats on Instagram. And oh, let me just check out… Oh, wait, what’s that influencer doing? Yeah, I mean, she’s kind of weird. She does it in a bikini, but like you’re already in it.
Doug Holt 15:53
Got it. You know, it’s interesting, I know that there’s over a billion internet searches a day, right, and over 50% of those are porn related, which is a crazy stat when you think about it. It’s mind boggling, really. And going through and seeing how much that industry has penetrated, so to speak, no pun intended into our world into our psyche as we go. From your perspective, Mo, speaking again, on behalf of all women in the world —
Mo 16:20
Yeah, definitely.
Doug Holt 16:21
Tongue in cheek, of course. But for a woman to witness this, I would imagine that becomes a life of quiet desperation, and of helplessness. Would that be the case that a lot of the women you think would feel that way? If they’re not feeling desired by their husband, they know their husband’s turning elsewhere, to an outside source for their fulfillment, and yet, I got to imagine the women aren’t fulfilled.
Mo 16:47
Yeah. The opposite of addiction is connection. So you can imagine when their husbands, what I hear from a lot of women, is when their husbands are engaging in pornography, and they’re addicted to it, it’s not just like, oh, wow, they’re addicted, they’re not connecting. They’ve taught their body what connection is, they’ve taught their mind what connection is, and it’s not with them. And women feel conversations, we talk about all that time. Men hear them, women feel them. And so women can feel that and it’s devastating. Like, just the pain of feeling like the person, the only person that I’m given permission to connect with doesn’t want to connect with me.
So I’m going to speak totally from like the woman’s, pure woman side, because it’s hard for the men’s side not to jump in and be like, but I get it, like it’s a pattern, and it’s dealing with trauma, and it’s dealing with hurt and I want to justify that side. But just for a moment, I’m just going to kind of lay it down because I see, I’ve just counseled so many people in the sphere that are both the addicted and the betrayed. And so it’s hard not to see both sides. But if I’m just pulling up the women’s side, it’s extremely horrifying, like just to know, you’re sitting in a room with someone who’s not really there.
And you are like, at every moment, when you walk into a grocery store, you’re thinking, okay, how do I not go down the magazine aisle because he might look at something? Or how does that woman who’s coming in the distance, I have to make sure that we turn the corner now. So it’s like your whole life is transformed. Like when you figure out that your husband is addicted, you can feel… Like there’s a woman who I knew who said that her husband told her that even when she’d go out to get the mail, he would be on his phone trying to find it, because it was the only time he could get freedom from her.
And so just like, then that woman in every little action of going to get mail, walking out to pick up the kids for five minutes, like that every moment is I have to get home to make sure that he’s not looking. And the reality is it’s not in your control and it’s not about you. That is the true reality is that the pornography is his thing, and that’s for him to work on, it’s for him to do. But for her, it’s more about like how do you find that connection and fulfillment within yourself. So you’re not constantly looking at someone who can’t give that to you. Like, he can realistically be for you, an addiction will never be what you want and need.
And so I think that just the pain from the woman’s side can be invalidated so frequently because it’s like, well, I told you that I did it so why can’t you just like, be thankful that I confessed it. Now you’re getting mad. So why are you getting mad? Now I’m never going to tell you. And it’s just like great. So now your honesty is based on my emotional reaction. And as we talked about the guys going into DEER mode and being reactive, and that just kills all emotional safety. So not only now are we dealing with a pornography issue, but we’re dealing with an emotional safety issue on her side, which is really what it’s always about. It’s what we talked about over and over again.
But yeah, there are consequences not just within the man’s life, but there are consequences in a marriage’s life. Like even if your husband has viewed pornography for five of your six marriage years, then, hey, guess what, seventh year, you’re not going to be like, oh, you’ve been two years sober. It’s like no, no, there’s still that five years of trust that was broken. And so it’s not — It’s just not that easy. And getting through that, there’s lots of things that we can do within The Activation Method to get a guy there, to where she can come to see that he is worthy of forgiveness. But it’s not an easy battle alone.
Josh 20:28
Yeah.
Doug Holt 20:29
Yeah. When I hear that, what I’m thinking about immediately comes to me, Mo, as a husband, right, and I look at husband, protector, provider to the basic — That’s the basic assignment. It’s not like the extra credit that you get. It’s the basics. And now when I’m hearing you say that, now I’m picturing a woman who’s in constant fear, constant worry and fear about her husband, what’s going to happen.
And then immediately what comes to me, now you have a household that’s anxious and is fear laden, the kids are going to feel that so much. And they may not understand why they may not know why, but they’re going to adapt that to their own ways of finding comfort, right. And the wife, instead of taking care of the family and nurturing the family, not to say that all women do that. But bell shaped curve, most women are going to be more nurturing in a relationship. Her energy is taken out. Like the man who’s probably quite frankly, bitching and complaining about what she is doing or not doing is really causing a lot of these actions to happen.
Josh 21:32
Yeah. And in that management, she’s managing him which means he’s lost leadership.
Doug Holt 21:39
Oh, yeah.
Josh 21:40
Which means he’s running around like a good boy watching the point when she checks the mail so that he can be a good boy, yeah. And then overcompensating with the money so he can be a good boy, get that gold star so that he doesn’t have to change himself, so that he feels justified to keep this unholy vise that he thinks he can’t live without. So that then forces the woman out of her feminine, that then forces her into all the things that you’ve spoken about as well.
And I know we have some women listening as well. And just like you said, if you imagine running around society with a heroin addict, right, where you’re trying to, like, is he going to get there? Is he going to get — where is he going to get his fix? I got to manage him, all of that, right. And one of the most powerful things a woman can do in this situation is to hold that boundary. You need to choose, Doug. You need to choose. You either get me or you get porn. And only when they can love their husbands with that fierce boundary, it’s like how we get guys into rehab, right? And I’ve had the closest of relationships where that has been the case where it’s like, listen, we’re not playing this game anymore. I don’t care if you think or you don’t think you are or you’re not.
Like, I’m telling you, we’re telling you that here are your choices. Which choice do you want? We’re okay. I mean, we will accept either. We’re not okay with either, but we will accept either choice. You’re still in control. But we want you to know that your decision will have these consequences. And then the hardest part is carrying it out and to actually send that message because that’s the guys we talked to. Oh, she’s served me papers. Oh, she’s asked me to move out. She finally stood up and said you have to choose. It’s either this or it’s that so that the guy can see.
Doug Holt 23:29
And this is why we talked about this a lot, we talk about a lot, over 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman and that goes up to 90% if the woman’s got a college degree or higher. And she’s given the guy the warning signs for years, typically and he’s going I’ll get better tomorrow. I’ll hope it gets better later.
Josh 23:47
She’ll calm down.
Doug Holt 23:48
Yeah. Or it’s been good for a little bit and it’s a bit up and down. And not realizing that she needs to find that emotional safety somewhere. Now it could be with our kids, it could be with her parents, it could be with another man as well. Or the phone, phone addiction, doom scrolling.
Josh 24:06
And just to come back to that before we go too far, the abstinence becomes the good boy behavior. It’s been two weeks, give me my star.
Doug Holt 24:13
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I could see that.
Josh 24:17
And he hasn’t done that inner work.
Mo 24:19
Putting it then on her to tell him he’s enough.
Josh 24:21
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s been six months.
Doug Holt 24:22
That’s sexy, isn’t it?
Josh 24:24
Aren’t I good?
Doug Holt 24:28
Yeah, that’s really interesting. One of the things — I mean, I love this conversation, guys, so thanks for bringing it to the table as we talk so much about other types of addictions. And I think our society and men in particular, don’t see porn as causing as much potential problem as it may be, even if they aren’t “addicted.” it could also be they’re turning their desire, or they could be pointing their desire towards their wife, the woman that they said I do to. Which I always make the analogy or you made a commitment to this person. You said you can’t sleep with anybody but me and yet you turn away, and you’re sleeping with your computer, right, so to speak. And she’s sitting in her bed by herself probably crying.
Mo 25:07
Yeah, I think there’s a difference between process addictions and substance addictions. And this is a process addiction, which is why it gets overlooked because technically, in the diagnostics, it’s not a technical term. But when you think through process addictions, that means there’s steps to it, right? So you’re not just addicted to the pornography, you’re addicted to the steps involved in it, which is where you totally change the energy of a space, which is why it affects the woman so much.
So basically, he starts to, like two days before it can be up to that long, like, there’s a ritual that they will go into where they will look at porn in two days. And so [crosstalk] yeah, it’s insane. And so he could start pulling away from her or starting a fight purposefully, so that he can get the distance so that he can have the reason to feel hurt, so that he can go back to his addiction. Right? So —
Doug Holt 25:56
It’s not my fault, it’s yours.
Mo 25:58
Right. It’s not my fault, we had this fight and… Or he will ritualistically, when he goes on business trips to a hotel room, set up the remote a certain way, set up the beds a certain way, touch the sheets –Anyways, you get the idea, he creates an environment, right. And so within a process addiction, you don’t, it’s not just you’re alone, I look at porn, and then it’s gone. You’ve done something, whether you realize it or not, on the front end and back end that is a process that she feels into. It’s why there’s so much codependency with this addiction, because she can feel it on both sides of it, the shame on the end, and the getting ready for it on the front end.
And that’s when she spins out of control and she starts screaming at him because she knows it’s about to happen because she can feel it in her gut. And then he gets what he wants, and he can look. And then afterwards she’s responsible for repairing his shame, because he feels guilty that he did it. And then she feels like she has to take care of him. I.e., she starts leading, he loses the leadership, and you see how it’s so damaging and destructive. Like it’s not just porn, it is all the stuff on — The environment that a man creates on the front end and back end of that has them totally lose leadership, and it’s purposeful sabotage.
Doug Holt 27:13
Interesting. Yeah.
Josh 27:14
So interesting too, because we were talking earlier about objectification, obviously, there’s the like it makes sense. You’re objectifying the woman on the device. You’re objectifying your wife, in contrast to that, but what I’m hearing from you here is that in the process, she’s objectified because you’re deciding to drive that way home. You’re deciding to set up that play date, all these processes that on the front end the guy is doing and a part of that is manipulating his wife like a pawn. He’s objectifying her because he’s trained into that. And I think that ties into, you know, just the practicalities of what porn does to you, where you just…
Mo 27:51
Trance.
Josh 27:52
Yeah, that objectification. I’ve never heard it described like that, Mo, so I really appreciate that. Like, I see how the man is then just using his wife just like he’s using the porn, he’s using. And that’s what she feels and she’s like that’s not okay. I’m a sovereign being. I’m a sovereign human and here you are using me for your feeling, which is… Now all of a sudden, we’re not talking about porn, right? Like, that’s serious. That sounds very… [crosstalk]
Doug Holt 28:20
Oh, yeah. And again, it gets to me, sorry to interrupt you, is the children watching all of this.
Josh 27:25
Yeah, absolutely.
Doug Holt 28:26
And they’re learning, hey, this is how good relationships should be. And they’re going to carry this on and manifest it in their own way later on in their lives. And I think what, I’m going to say this, because it’s obvious to us, but it hopefully will drop for some of the guys. The man becomes the child. And now the woman’s got another frigging kid she’s got to take care of in the house. And it’s a big kid that throws the biggest tantrum, right, that is in charge of her safety, so to speak. And so now she’s no longer safe. She feels like she has to manage another kid, and this kid is even more disruptive than the other kids. Yeah, and then it’s just not sexy, and it comes into this vicious cycle that repeats itself over and over again.
Josh 29:10
And I think some men, because they’ve denied how serious it is for themselves, I think that’s a great doorway to actually spend a little moment on the kids. Because that, when we talk to a lot of guys, part of what we do as we help them make the decision to join The Activation Method, it’s like, okay, well, what’s going to happen if you don’t figure this out, like if you don’t get these skills, if you keep using the porn? Like, let’s run that track out, six, nine, 12 months, like, where do you see it going?
And so I think there’s an opportunity here to talk about the kids. And this is the work that I used to do before I came to the powerful man, where I ran an organization that did — I did talks in schools, and we did surveys with kids, and we were really trying to educate children around this, because what we were seeing there was that, that’s where the sexting craze is going, because dads are not talking to their kids about it because they’re so shameful about. [crosstalk] They haven’t processed it so they can’t talk to their son about porn because they know in their heart of hearts that they got this issue. So the kid doesn’t get talked to and then he’s watching porn. He’s normalizing violence, verbal and physical.
Something crazy, like 80 to 90% of pornography has violence in it, often against the woman to the vast majority of the time. It’s only focused on the genitals. So what do we see in the teens? They’re wanting to sext each other. Send me a pic of your boobs, send me a pic… Because that’s how they’ve learned how to build intimacy. And because they don’t get course corrected, like Ryan, one of our other marriage specialists was saying just a moment ago, he was saying, the kids grow up with that, the boys grow up with that, and the girls, they’re watching porn as well to figure out what they have to do for guys, because they’re not getting talked about it. But for the guys, they’ve lost that game before they even know that they’re on the field.
Doug Holt 30:54
Yeah. I can see that so much. And it’s happened in my family where we’ve had somebody, a female in my family, a young woman who was shamed for the sexting thing and the demands made of her. I don’t know the full story, but the repercussions I couldn’t even imagine what it would be.
Josh 31:11
Yeah. I mean, that’s a whole business angle in itself. I mean, we’ve counseled kids that have got, it’s called sextortion. And there’s just leagues of guys that are — And it’s not always sexual, like you do get groomers and that’s rife, obviously. But you get guys, it’s just the business, you get them to, you know, I’m a modeling agency, “Hey, my gosh, you’re such a handsome young man.” And then that gets to the point where they share something that they don’t want to have seen. And then it’s cool, send me $100, $1,000. Send me $200,000 depending on the profile, and what this guy can do.
Doug Holt 31:47
Yeah, I don’t know about you guys. But when I was at that age, testosterone was high, wisdom was below the floor, you know. And you just don’t — you’re not in control of your actions in your thought process as young kids. And as a father myself in this conversation, I’m questioning my own behaviors, because how are they trans — even in a micro way, right? I personally don’t feel I have an addiction, but even in the micro ways, am I transferring some kind of behavior to my wife, or which is a game changer for me is to my kids. I have a daughter and I have a son, so I have both sides of this coin. What are they seeing or feeling, to your point, Mo that I may not even be picking up on?
Josh 32:30
Yeah.
Mo 32:30
Yeah, I think in terms — We could go on a whole nother podcast in terms of what does it look like to prepare kids for this journey. But I think that one of the biggest things that we do as a family because we know how this problem plays out, no devices are allowed, basically outside of an adult’s view. And it’s not a fear thing. We’ve just said, hey, that’s access to the whole world and you’re little and so your mind gets a little bit of the world. And so when we have all of our devices locked, and we tell them exactly why, we have a strategy, if they were to see anything accidentally online, or if they were to see anything in school.
There’s some like great little kid books that we read them on pornography, Good Picture, Bad Picture Junior. And it talks about your private parts and it says if anyone tries to take pictures, or if anyone like — then you can turn, run, and tell. Turn away from the image, run to a trusted adult and tell them. And I watched my kids get asked by other trusted adults, what would you do if you ever saw an image? And they all said it. They were like nine, seven and four at the time. And so yeah, it was just like my mom win. Heck yeah.
Doug Holt 33:37
Yeah, absolutely.
Mo 33:38
And so it’s just like, it’s not — and they’ve learned it not as like it’s bad. They’ve learned it as it’s reportable. It’s not your fault, it would be something that you would be able to tell us. And guess what, you might see it and like it. And that’s okay too because we were designed to like nakedness, like that’s part of our DNA. It’s in certain contexts that we were designed to like it. And so just telling them like, nothing is a no, it’s just a, there’s a certain context for it, so that it doesn’t create shame around it. So we don’t have people, kids becoming adults doing it in secret and in shame. Because the reality is, there is pleasure there, like that’s why people keep doing it. And that pleasure is reserved for context.
And so just explaining that to our kids, keeps the dialog open, keeps, like naming private parts by their actual names, is huge in case of sexual abuse at anytime so a kid can report on their actual private parts. But it’s funny, when I’ve learned some of this, they tell you to look in a mirror and say the words penis and vagina without smiling or changing your face, just so you can get it out to them and not look silly, not look like you’re hiding something. Because a lot of times our parents never talked to us about it, but we’re having to talk to our kids about it, so we don’t know what to do. And so it’s just like learning how do you say that comfortably so that they don’t feel as awkward as you did as a kid if your parents tried to come to you and talk to you about it.
Doug Holt 35:00
Sure. We talk about all the time in my house, like that way. Can you repeat those books again?
Mo 35:06
Yeah, Good Picture, Bad Picture Junior. There’s one for a little bit older kids called Good Picture Bad Picture. The first one has the option of giving the word pornography in it to the kid or not. The second one is a lot more in detail. And then there’s — All About Me is another little kid book, like illustrated cute little books. And there’s a few more that I can think of maybe.
Doug Holt 35:27
I’ll throw one into the pile because I know other dads listen to this and moms but Diggory Doo has got a series and they have one too. And as a dad, I love reading those books and they rhyme. So I feel [inaudible 00:35:36] doing it. I’m going to change gears again, if that’s okay. So what advice would you guys give to a man that’s listening to this and going crap, maybe this is something I need to look into?
Josh 35:49
Yeah, I mean, number one you need, it’s kind of ironic because it’s kind of what the kids — stop, turn and tell. Like, stop doing what you’re doing. Turn to someone that you can trust. Obviously, we’re trained in this, our team at The Powerful Man, and talk to them about it. Figure out if this is — What is it holding you back from? What is it costing? Do that stage one, that rational understanding. Ideally, you’re going to join The Activation Method or program where you can do stage two and that action, what are the actions we need to take? What’s the skill up? What’s all of that?
And then I think it’s also to mention for those guys out there that they’re aware of this. Maybe they’ve toned it down a lot, but there’s still — they’re okay with just the little bit that’s there. And I guess the invitation for them at that stage three, and maybe this is more kind of the Brotherhood or the Inner Circle guys. It’s like, think about this life force. What are you doing with your life force? What seeds are you putting out into the world, and where are you putting them? You can take that metaphor wherever you want to go, but that’s a fact. There is a deeply spiritual side to, this is my perspective, to sex to our creative forces.
And if you’re okay with wasting away some of that, like, well, what’s that holding you back from? What would happen if you channeled that into your marriage, into your business, into your relationships, into your exercise? I mean there’s lots of stories of pro athletes. They have a very specific relationship with their orgasms and their sexual kind of process, because it is important. So if you’re wanting to be that elite athlete version of a dad, elite athlete version of a businessman, elite athlete version of a man, like think into it. You’re looking for that 10% or 5% everywhere else, why wouldn’t you look for it here? And maybe take that conversation up with a trusted coach, someone that’s been through it, someone that can talk to you about it, to figure out what you want to pursue, and then nail it, and then get it done, you know.
Doug Holt 37:56
Love it. Mo, any parting words for the men that kind of might be on the fence going geez man, this really resonates with me, and I’m just wondering, hmm, what can I do?
Mo 38:08
Yeah, I’d say — I’m thinking about it from the woman’s side of things, but own it. It’s usually like a huge thing for a woman for a guy to just own the ways that he may have hurt the wife. Or if you’re the wife, then own it for the man. But I just think there’s so much power and just saying I was wrong. Like I shouldn’t have done this, I can see how it hurt you, and I can see that it hurt you in these ways. I think there’s just so much power to taking ownership there.
Doug Holt 38:43
And so what you’re talking about specifically, we have a process, we have a three-part process we call the Triad of Connection. And a big part of that is the Clean Slate Method, which allows guys to wipe the slate completely clean, and start from scratch. It doesn’t mean you get to do your actions again. But really it’s a restarting, because I think a lot of guys that are listening to this, and they’re in a situation where they’re using porn to their disadvantage, right? And we can all have, what that means that each person maybe, that’s probably caused a lot of damage over years and years.
And I keep thinking of your wife’s living in quiet desperation. She’s wanting the intimacy, she’s wanting that connection, she’s not getting it. Your kids are watching the disconnect and the fear in your house, and when are you going to step up? When are you going to step up and make the change? Whether it be porn, alcohol, drugs, work addiction, phone addiction, sedation of some sort; when are you going to step up and lead your family?
Josh 39:43
Yeah. And I think in that exact same step is to normalize the relapse. You’ve been doing this for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, and now it’s called Clean Slate. And obviously you come with promises and then you slip up, work gets demanding, you go back to those tools that have worked for 20 years, for 10, five years. And I think it’s good, it’s important that guys understand that it’s going to be a journey. Stage one, stage two, stage three, it’s going to be a journey. And as long as you can keep your wife on board with her seeing you’re trying and seeing that action, that’s going to bridge the moments that you mess up, because nobody’s perfect, right? And if you build up, like Mo said, that connection, that strength of connection, we call it like the emotional bank, then you can bridge those moments that you mess up, if they come. You know, just to normalize it, like it’s a journey.
Mo 40:41
Relapse isn’t failure, it’s an opportunity for a lesson.
Josh 40:44
Yeah, maybe just say that again. That was great.
Mo 40:46
Yeah, relapse isn’t a failure, it’s an opportunity for a lesson, but learn and change.
Josh 40:51
Learn. And learn fast. Yeah. And I think that’s an important one. Because there’s the guy that says, oh, I tried, and I’ll never be able to, and then he just steps out of the room. Right? And that’s not helping anyone.
Doug Holt 41:04
No. I laugh because these are all businessmen and they would never do it in any area of their business.
Josh 41:08
Yeah. We failed Q1, guys. Okay, with shutting the business.
Doug Holt 41:14
No, you try, you iterate, and keep working and keep working until you get it right. And the same thing should happen in this area, in your marriage, and in your relationships that are most important. Guys, thanks so much for bringing this to the table. This is a conversation I really enjoyed personally, so thank you both.
Mo 41:27
Yeah.
Doug Holt 41:28
Gentlemen, as we always say, in the moment of insight, take massive action. And if you want to talk to one of our advisors, such as Mo or Josh here, simply go to the powerfulman.com/applynow. Simple, powerful man.com/applynow, or email VIP@thepowerfulman.com. Get on a call, guys. Have a conversation that matters. We talked about this earlier, courage is not just being scared, not doing anything. Courage is being scared and taking action anyway. So guys, we’ll see you next time on the TPM show.
Closing:
All right, guys, that’s a wrap for this episode. But as I always say in the moment of insight, take massive action. You see, there are two types of men that listen to a podcast like this, those that go on from one podcast or show to another just hoping things are going to change and realizing that they’re going to be in the same place month after month, year after year.
You see, I was this guy so I completely get it. You may just not be ready. But there’s also a second man, a second man that listens to a show just like this. And this is a guy who takes massive action so they can shorten the learning curve, compress time, and get RESULTS to be the WOLF. See, WOLF is an acronym for Wise, Open, Loving, and Fierce.
Now ask yourself, which one am I? And just be honest with yourself there. And there’s no judgment on my end. But if you’re ready to move from deactivated DEER mode, which is Defend, Excuse, Explain, and React to activated WOLF, Wise, Open, Loving and Fierce, then go over to thepowerfulman.com/grow. And go there now. In fact, I’ll make it super easy for you. I will even put the link right in the description here so you can just click it and go over there now to learn more. Guys, in the moment of insight, take massive action. Go from deactivated to activated, because like I said, life is too short for average and I’ll see you on the next episode!
