Episode 1145
What happens when you join a program to save your marriage and end up saving yourself instead?
In this powerful conversation, Tim Matthews sits down with longtime TPM member Lawrence to talk about life after divorce, personal transformation, and what it really means to stop settling for average. After spending more than 30 years married, Lawrence found himself facing a reality he never expected. His marriage ended, but his story didn’t. In many ways, it was just beginning.
Together, Tim and Lawrence explore the challenges of letting go of old identities, overcoming guilt, and learning how to embrace a new chapter with confidence and purpose. They discuss why so many men dim their light, how self sabotage can show up when life starts going well, and what it takes to expand your capacity for success, happiness, and deeper relationships.
You’ll also hear an honest conversation about healing after divorce, finding authentic connection, overcoming the need for external validation, and why real growth happens when you're willing to stop performing and start showing up as yourself. This episode offers a refreshing perspective for any man navigating separation, personal growth, or a major life transition.
If you've ever wondered whether there's life after divorce, struggled with feelings of guilt around moving forward, or felt stuck between who you were and who you're becoming, this conversation will give you practical insights and a different way to think about what's possible.
If your relationship feels disconnected, stuck, or headed in the wrong direction, get the free training from The Powerful Man. You'll learn why relationships drift apart, what causes men to lose connection with their partner, and the practical steps you can take to rebuild trust, intimacy, and respect.
Get the free training here: https://thepowerfulman.com/scales
It’s completely free and designed to help you take the first step toward creating the relationship you really want.
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Stephen 0:00
I joined to save my marriage.
Tim Matthews 0:01
Why’d you keep dimming your light?
Stephen 0:03
I actually needed to save myself.
Tim Matthews 0:05
The gray is where the connection takes place.
Stephen 0:08
Now I am a completely different man. You wouldn’t recognize me.
Tim Matthews 0:12
That’s leadership.
Stephen 0:13
There really is life like proper life like lived to the full. I’ve completely reinvented myself.
Tim Matthews 0:18
But to feel seen and loved
Stephen 0:21
Average. I hate average. I’m not doing average anymore. How good can it get? That’s where the question of capacity comes in.
Tim Matthews 0:27
The toughest times in our relationship that’s when that came out.
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of The TPM Show. I’m your host, Tim Matthews, joined by an incredible man, Wild Card.
Stephen 0:52
It’s a pleasure to be here, Tim.
Tim Matthews 0:55
How you doing, brother?
Stephen 0:56
I’m good. I’m really good.
Tim Matthews 0:57
So, obviously, you’ve been on the show before a few times. However, let’s just give you a quick introduction. Let the guys know maybe even the women, because we know women tune into the show as well give a quick synopsis, a little bit about you and the movement, and then we’ll get cracking.
Stephen 1:16
Okay. I’ve been part of TPM now for over four years. I joined to save my marriage, and things hadn’t been going well. I was a soldier for many years, and then I started running businesses, and my marriage slowly drifted. I got into the drift, essentially, and couldn’t get out of it.
So I joined the movement to try and fix that and very quickly found that I actually needed to save myself fix myself, find myself again. Completely lost.
The movement did exactly that for me in the first year. I came to the end of the first-year Brotherhood and just felt like there was more to do, so I stayed on and I stayed on.
I’ve built some really strong friendships and done some amazing work, largely thanks to you and the whole team, really. And I’ve grown.
Unfortunately, the marriage didn’t survive my awakening, so we parted ways a while back, and life has been incredible since then. It was a real transformation and something I grasped onto and held onto for longer than I probably should have, but in the end it was the right thing to do for both of us.
Now I am a completely different man. You wouldn’t recognize me from who I was. I was seven and a half stone heavier
Tim Matthews 2:55
And 90 pounds heavier.
Stephen 2:57
It was two bags of cement. I was carrying two bags of cement around with me, and I was quite depressed and trying to struggle with the business and just not coping at all.
And I didn’t know it at the time. I thought I was coping really well until I wasn’t.
The Powerful Man has been absolutely instrumental in helping me move from there to where I am now, which is light-years away.
Tim Matthews 3:36
Awesome. So you have a topic for us?
Stephen 3:39
Yes. So I’ve been thinking just recently.
Tim Matthews 3:44
What’s coming up here? Because there’s some emotion in your face right now. What is it?
Stephen 3:49
I suppose I’m really excited to be here and talking to you about things that have been coming up.
We have a pack call every week with our pack, and things arise in that every week. It’s a really good accountability group. All the guys there have been in the movement for a while.
So when I get off those calls, I’ve still got things going around in my head, and I’m making contact with some of the other guys. But to be able to come and share some of those with a wider audience is really exciting.
This week I’ve been really thinking about my capacity. “Capacity” is the word that keeps coming back to me.
I’ve reached really low levels where I feel like I’m burning out, and I sense that. And then there are other times where I’m feeling really good.
I was recently made aware of how I can have an upper-level capacity as well like I can self-limit myself.
So it would be good to hear your thoughts on where we go in terms of when life is good and when things are going well, and then we kind of self-sabotage, or I pull myself back from that, or I feel like I can’t, or I’m not worthy of achieving more.
Tim Matthews 5:24
I mean, it’s a great topic. I just want to take the conversation back a little bit, because when you were describing your journey and where you were and where you are, I just get the sense that something came alive or is coming alive in you, because there’s some emotion on your face. I could be way off, but there’s something there.
Stephen 5:51
I suppose there may be a little bit of guilt that I don’t feel grief. That’s pretty honest.
I was married for 33 years. I’ve got three grown-up children, and my ex-wife said it best when she said she just feels that the marriage is complete, like we’d gone as far as we could go. We were a good team when we were a good team, and we had aligned visions and goals, and we were in alignment. And then over the last 10–15 years, we just came out of alignment.
So making the decision to accept that we had reached the end was momentous. But afterwards, I didn’t feel any grief, and I feel a bit of guilt for not feeling more grief or allowing myself to feel that.
I’ve done a lot of work on that. I’ve gone into quite a lot of depth, you know, asking: Am I just numbing myself? Am I pushing it down? Is it going to come out later?
But so far, it’s been a long time now, and I just keep getting better. And it’s I don’t want to say it but it’s awful. But it’s a good thing to say, because there may be some people watching this who are in a similar situation and feeling like their life’s going to change forever and that they’re going to really struggle with divorce or separation.
And I suppose what I’m here to say is there really is life like proper life like lived to the full afterwards. When you let yourself go, it’s an opportunity to completely reinvent yourself.
I’ve completely reinvented myself just the way I look physically, the way I think, the language that TPM has given me. We were talking earlier, just before the podcast, about how important language is and how it gives you the tools. Once you’ve got words to put around a topic or a thought or a feeling or an emotion, you can then do something with that if you need to, or decide what it is, or decide what to do with it.
So all of that has changed radically, and I am living my best life. And unapologetically, I’m sitting here thinking I almost feel guilty for being where I am. But I am having a ball. I can be myself. I can do what I want without being
Tim Matthews 8:36
Why did you keep dimming your light?
Stephen 8:37
Well, because I guess it’s not in me to be out there in front of the camera, to be the guy in the spotlight. I’m a bass player, not lead.
Tim Matthews 8:55
Let’s pretend for a second that this episode never makes it that this is just you and I talking. What would you say?
Stephen 9:04
I’d say I’m having a fucking whale of a time.
The movement all the guys in the movement I’ve got friends. Everything, every aspect of my life has changed.
I don’t think you appreciate how and I’m sure you do, because you hear this all the time from guys in the movement I don’t want to fawn or anything, but literally, I had no adult male friends. I was pretty isolated. I was looking to my ex-wife for everything. She had to fulfill all of my needs, really, and it was too much for her. And I didn’t even know what my needs were.
Now I consciously reflect daily on what I want out of today. Who am I today? Where am I embodying the WOLF, right? The core scores that we do. Where am I living to my edge? Where am I pushing, or where am I settling?
Where am I settling for average? Fuck average. I hate average. I’m not doing average anymore. I don’t do that.
Everything I do is done with a sense of excellence or a purpose. It’s an entirely different way of being for me.
Tim Matthews 10:24
So the guilt what’s that about?
Stephen 10:27
I think it’s what you were just saying there. It’s like I’m dimming my light.
There’s a reason why a car windscreen is a bloody great windscreen and you’ve got a little rear-view mirror. I was just reflecting on that on the way up here. I’m not meant to spend too much of my time looking in the rear-view mirror and wondering why I did what I did or why I allowed it to go on for so long.
I think I do just dim my light sometimes when I feel like, “Oh, I don’t want to sound too this or too that too over the top.”
Tim Matthews 11:04
Isn’t that part of what got you into the position in the first place?
Stephen 11:08
See, it’s still there. It’s still there. It doesn’t matter how much you progress that shadow side is still there. It’s just managing it and having conversations like this and having conversations with the guys when we go away to Prague or Valencia in the autumn, or Japan, where I’ve just come back from.
Having those conversations with those guys reminds you. Because you’ll be talking and the mask’s on, and you’ll say something, but somebody there like nowhere else I know will go, “Isn’t that you just dimming your light?” or something like that. It opens you up.
Tim Matthews 11:49
A whole new way of seeing the pattern behind that.
But you said about the shadow aspect it’s still there. And you sounded a little frustrated, as though it was still there.
There are two things. The first one is, I think there’s a misnomer that a lot of people have that they want to kill this part of themselves as though this part of themselves, when I say this part, I’m talking about the shadow, right?
Stephen 12:20
Yeah.
Tim Matthews 12:20
As though that part of them is a problem and it isn’t.
Stephen 12:27
Yeah.
Tim Matthews 12:28
It’s a part of them that served a purpose at a point in time served an incredible purpose at a point in time and still serves a purpose now. it's just whether you're going to live consciously or unconsciously, and if, when it shows up, you have judgment around it, that just keeps you stuck in the same loop, right? Whereas when you can have awareness, acceptance, and compassion, you'll find that it will tend to loosen its grip.
Stephen 13:05
,
Tim Matthews 13:06
Right. So, you could still be aware of the feelings that may still arise for you to want to dim your light, and we'll talk about the guilt in a minute. So, the feeling may still arise for you to dim your light. You can just be aware of it, and when you do the work on it, which you've done, maybe there's an opportunity for you to go a little bit deeper on it to understand it a little bit more, because ultimately, when it shows up, it is trying to protect you from something. So I say , you got a lump in your throat then.
Stephen 13:42
, no, I… it’s… I like parts of that. I… it’s not the shadow, like you say, still serves that purpose of grounding me, I think. Actually, it turns from holding me back to grounding me down. I think they’re there. I don’t want you know, I like wearing black clothes. I like being the guy who’s quietly standing in the corner. I don’t have to be in the spotlight. I like that about me. That’s good, and that’s a different way of looking at, “Oh, must be in the corner because I don’t want to be in the spotlight.”
Tim Matthews 14:25
100%, right? Same place, different experience. With your shadow, obviously, you’ve got the dark side of it and the light side of it. And again, I’m just highlighting the point that it’s not a bad thing. If it’s unconscious and it’s creating destruction, then obviously it’s unhealthy. But when it’s conscious and it’s in the light, like you just said, “Hey, I’m in the corner, but I’m choosing to be here.”
But anyway, there’s this piece around the guilt. I’m curious, like, why do you feel guilty for essentially living a great life?
Stephen 15:06
I guess it was the expectation that, you know, I spent so many years trying to save the marriage that when it finally ended, my expectation was that it would be really hard and there’d be lots of tears and there were some tears but there would be lots of heartache and heartbreak and things like that. And there wasn’t. There was a real sense of freedom, a real sense of, “Oh, I can breathe,” like a weight has been lifted off. And this is no disrespect to my ex-wife. I don’t think she was putting that on me. I think I was putting that on me. I wasn’t being my true, authentic self because I was telling myself a story in my head about a certain way I had to be.
But I guess the guilt comes from, you know, I’ve got grown-up kids, and they’re not as affected as if they were young, but it still affects people around you that expected you to be together forever. My parents are still together and still healthy and still wonderful, and so the kind of expectation was that we would always be together. And that hasn’t happened. And I don’t know I feel, again, it’s a story I’m telling myself because no one else is putting this on me. No one else is saying, “You should feel guilty.” I’m just… there’s a little niggle in the back of my head that goes, I suppose, “Am I worthy to live such a good life?” Like, I’ve spent so many years pushing myself down and holding myself back because of the internal story I was telling myself. And this now is like, “How good can it get?” That’s where the question of capacity comes in is how good can it get? Because it’s pretty damn good right now, and I want that to continue. And I guess, thinking about it now, there’s a little bit of, you know, when’s the other shoe gonna drop?
Tim Matthews 17:04
I’m just thinking, is there a fear when will it end?
Stephen 17:07
Someone will take this away from me, or it will end, or I’ll reach a level where suddenly somebody grabs me and goes, “Back in your box.”
Tim Matthews 17:16
That’s interesting. So, you talk about the marriage ending and this freedom this sense of freedom you experienced. I’ve got to imagine that that also came without any attachment to anything because you were in this unknown chapter of your life. And because expectation was so low, curiosity was so high, and authenticity was the path, it was super enjoyable.
And now you’ve got some evidence “Oh, so this is what this path is like.” And it’s easier at that point for expectation to set in and attachment that it should look like this particular way now because I have the evidence. Before, you had nothing to lose. Now, if you allow yourself to think this way, you could start to stack things in a way whereby you do feel as though you have something to lose. But again, the thing that got you into this position of feeling so good was the opposite of that.
So in terms of capacity, what if it wasn’t as much of a capacity issue that you have, but more of an attachment issue? I don’t mean attachment in the form of a relationship. I’m talking about attachment to outcome.
Stephen 18:44
, it’s been a journey because when I first you know, several months after we separated, quite a while after we separated I was convinced by some friends to try dating apps. And when I put myself on there, I didn’t want to tell anyone I was 55. Fifty-five sounds ancient, so I put myself down as 49 because I didn’t again, I didn’t think I was worthy, or I’ve got to look better than I am. Of course, I met a girl, and then I got quite serious with her, and I’m like, “I’ve got to fess up now.” So I’ve just shot myself in the foot. And actually, she’s with me now, and she’s very much kind of, “Just be you.” Like, it’s wonderful to have somebody
Tim Matthews 19:32
I’d say, what does that feel like?
Stephen 19:33
Oh, it’s I was gonna say like a breath of fresh air, but that sounds too simple. It’s very freeing somebody to see you as you are and accept you as you are. Amazing. But again, is that a connection by me to external validation? Am I looking to her to you know that’s really nice? Because this is what I do all the time internal monologue.
Tim Matthews 20:02
I mean, we all have needs. Certain needs can only be met by being in relation with another person that could be in an intimate relationship, that could be in a friendship, whatever it may be. But as human beings, we are social creatures, and we have an innate desire to be seen and heard. That’s an innate desire.
There’s this story of a prisoner in Robben Island you know Robben Island?
Stephen 20:35
Where Mandela was in.
Tim Matthews 20:36
So one of the prisoners was kept in I say in isolation it was his own cell, but I think some of the prisoners were. And the story goes that the guards just refused to talk to him. So he’d be trying to talk to them, he’d be trying to interact with them, and the guards just would have none of it. And slowly but surely, over time, this prisoner went insane because he had no interaction. He just felt so I'm guessing anyway he felt so alone.
But we need that human interaction. So to your point, the feeling of being accepted I don’t think it’s… If you started to do things to seek her approval, if you were to change and modify your authentic self and, as a result, start doing things “Oh, well, if I do this, then I’ll get a pat on the back,” or “This will make her happy,” or whatever it may be and even that point, “This will make her happy,” if that comes from a place of giving, it’s awesome. If it comes from a place of getting “I’m gonna do it so I can get something” then that’s the external validation piece.
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Tim Matthews 22:50
You know, where is it coming from? To her point with you, just be yourself. And to be seen by the other and to be accepted in the eyes of someone that you admire, respect, love, whatever it may be, is such an innate need that we have as human beings. It's very healthy. I think a lot of men, in my experience of working with thousands over the past decade or more, can often confuse that to your point just now with being needy. “Well, I don't want to be needy. I don't want to need her validation of me.” Well, there's a healthy component to that. It's absolutely necessary and foundational for human connection.
Stephen 23:41
I think that really hits hard that Robben Island story because I can imagine you can almost feel that’s like becoming, like disappearing as a person, just invisible, becoming invisible, like not even being aware
Tim Matthews 23:54
That’s the question. So many things, right? Can they hear me? Am I speaking too loud? You’d just question yourself. The loop, the internal loop that would the doubt that would create.
Stephen 24:06
I saw something earlier on today, and it said somebody was saying, “Oh, I need to heal before I get into a relationship.” And the guy that was talking said, “No, no, no, don't wait to heal yourself until you get into a relationship, because the healing has to come as part of that interaction, that human interaction. That’s where the healing happens 100%.” That’s what’s happening with me.
Tim Matthews 24:32
For sure. And I think if you enter into it in a conscious way into the relationship in a very conscious manner the point being, I felt free after the divorce, I was being me. You take that energy in and you remain open. You don’t collapse and start to perform. The key is when we start to perform and the covert contracts come in.
Stephen 24:59
Just explain covert contracts. I think I grasp the thing, but
Tim Matthews 25:02
So the covert contract would kind of be giving to get, right? “Okay, I'm going to do this thing for her so that she will do whatever in return for me.” However, I'm never going to tell her that hence the covert piece. But if she doesn't do it, then I'm going to hold it against her.
Stephen 25:20
Resentment.
Tim Matthews 25:20
So then the resentment kicks in. But a big piece of the healing does occur in relationship with another. The relationship is what happens in the space between two people. It's how two people relate to one another. So you can do the work on your own, but you can only go so far on your own. How you then engage and interact and are received by the other person, and the vulnerabilities that you have to bring over, and the openness, and all of that fun stuff letting her see the wounds and the scars and all of that and you taking the risk to fully be you without the masks, and whether she accepts it or not there's a lot at stake.
Stephen 26:11
And the skill of holding the space so that she can authentically be her as well.
Tim Matthews 26:15
Well, of course. I mean, if you're authentically being you, it sets the scene for her to authentically be herself as well, because the unwritten well, it could be actually written or spoken but the agreement essentially is, “I'm going to be me and all of me, and you're going to be you and all of you, and we'll figure it out. We'll play in the gray.” The gray is where the connection takes place. And oftentimes, as men, we can live in absolutes. So I'm either I either have to sacrifice my needs and stay in the relationship, or I have to have them and leave the relationship. Although there's a gray area that exists where there's curiosity and exploration and understanding and connection and vulnerability, and there's a whole gray area there.
Stephen 27:10
So I'm curious
Tim Matthews 27:12
I'm worried.
Stephen 27:17
Are you or are you that intentional in your relationship? Is that something that you
Tim Matthews 27:22
I'm not perfect by any means.
Stephen 27:23
And how long has your relationship been?
Tim Matthews 27:27
We have been together now maybe about 13 years, 12 years, 13 years.
Stephen 27:35
Wow. And you so what I’m getting at is sustainability. It’s sustainable as long as you stay present, as long as you have that time to yourself to reflect and work on yourself and don’t lose yourself again. You can go 13 years and still be in a good place and still be intentional enough to hold that space and be yourself.
Tim Matthews 28:00
I mean, don’t get me wrong, we’ve had our ups and downs, obviously, and there’s an ebb and flow, and some seasons are harder than others, and we’ve had to come through some tough times together. But turning toward one another instead of away from one another is a thing that has helped us through those tough times. And we’ve still gotten angry at one another, and in those moments it’s not like we’re two saints. That’s probably more worrying, to be honest, because there are certain things that belong in the relational space that should be held in the relationship.
And the mistake that I used to make and I still do sometimes, I think, just by the nature of being an entrepreneur is I used to retreat into the cave, take myself off on my own, figure things out or try to figure them out, come up with a plan, and then come back to the relationship hopeful, like, “I’ve got this plan,” and we’ve got to be none the wiser because I’ve not communicated anything.
Stephen 29:10
It’s all happened in your
Tim Matthews 29:10
And then when the plan doesn’t work, I’m like, “What the hell?” Getting frustrated and sometimes projecting onto her or the relationship. And the issue was I was just not open.
Stephen 29:23
Have you worked it all out?
Tim Matthews 29:24
Exactly. Where it should have been worked out in the relationship, it should have been brought over. It should have been held in the relationship, in the space between two people. It should have been held in the relational space. And if that meant it upset her or upset me, then I needed to be willing for the upset to take place. Because through the figuring out within the upset, the clarity can come and the connection can come providing there’s curiosity and there’s not accusation and assumption and story and judgment. Because if all those things are there, then we’re not going to heal one another.
Stephen 30:09
So it’s almost like, do you think that if you take it away, try and fix it, try and solve it, bring it back as a package solution, that that erodes trust? She doesn’t feel trusted to be part of that. You’ve just come with a lump and thrown it up in front of
Tim Matthews 30:25
Maybe she might not feel trusted. I imagine she’d have questions: “Why did you not tell me? I never asked you to do those things.” So, for example, let’s say I retreat into the cave. I cave. In my genius, I come up with a plan that’s just the best thing since sliced bread. “This is gonna work.” And maybe that plan might include me changing certain things or showing up differently or doing things I think she might want me to do. Well, if she’s never asked for them, how’s it ever gonna be
Stephen 31:06
Amazing for her.
Tim Matthews 31:07
Exactly! And then I go and waste a lot of effort at least it feels like that, right? I could then get despondent, maybe a little bit hopeless. “Is this ever gonna work? I’ve put in this effort, I’ve tried again.” When all along it just needed some openness and some willingness to collide with one another.
Stephen 31:35
Take the risk.
Tim Matthews 31:35
You’ve got to collide, because in the collision, connection can take place.
Stephen 31:39
Love that.
Tim Matthews 31:40
If the collision is clean. When I say clean, what I mean by that is I’m taking ownership for my side in it. So I’m not colliding and blaming her. I’m not using “you” statements “You did this and you did that, and you made me feel this way.” Instead, I’m taking ownership of my experience and the things that I am feeling and getting curious about what might be going on for her. So I’m not making assumptions about why she’s done something. Instead, I’m getting curious.
Because I think that’s one of the traps it’s easy to fall into. We can assume that we know the other person so well and therefore we know their motive, and we don’t. We don’t at all. And the mistake is that I think we can easily expect people to be mind readers, and it works both ways. And we can forget there’s another human being in front of us that is a completely separate individual with their own internal world and their own hopes and dreams and fears and journey and growth.
And I think if you can learn to stay curious about that person which is easier said than done, right? Because proximity and all that stuff can mean that it takes effort. You have to be intentional about being curious in that scenario. In the beginning of a relationship, you just are, right? There’s this new person in front of you. “Who is this person? What are they like? What do they like? What don’t they like? What’s their history?” It just comes natural. But to sustain that in the long run takes intention.
But one thing I can say is Amelia loves me for who I am, which is an incredible feeling. Because I don’t think I went that really light. I remember when she first brought it up in conversation, and she said something about loving me, and I’m like, “What do you mean? I don’t have to do this to earn your love? I don’t have to do that to earn your love?” Like, no, I don’t get it. What do you mean? “I just love you for who you are.” And I could not wrap my head around it. I just couldn’t. I felt so seen. It felt so vulnerable. I just couldn’t wrap my head around it, because all my life I’d felt as though I had to earn the love, be it through being good at sport or making money or whatever it may be. And I had placed all these rules around what I felt like I had to do.
So when she first shared that with me, it just like I said I couldn’t wrap my head around it. But to feel seen and loved for being that’s occurred in the moments of darkness, the toughest times in our relationship. That’s when that came out, because we were turning toward one another, and it was a very vulnerable space for us both to be in.
Stephen 35:26
I love that picture of taking it into the relationship space, not holding it individually and then co-creating the response or the answer or the solution or the argument or whatever it’s going to be. You’re almost co-creating this thing together because then there’s a sense of ownership of the thing yourselves, both of you together. I love that. That’s a beautiful picture.
And as you were saying there, I think I was listening to one of your podcasts yesterday and it was like a lighthouse has no purpose unless there’s a storm. And that came up as well as you were talking. I just think, you know, in those difficult times, we sometimes think, like when we talk about the lighthouse and being in the storms, and in the movement it’s very much kind of, “Must stay so rigid and strong.” But it’s in those times of real darkness where you’re most vulnerable that you get to stand. And when I say stand, it’s like just be authentically you and be open and be open to the vulnerability of bearing yourself to someone else.
Tim Matthews 36:35
I think guys like us, who are used to running a business where we have to know the answer and we have to have a plan, I think that habit, whilst it might work for us in business, works against us in a relationship. Because the things that ought to be figured out by the couple, the guy can often take on the idea that he should be figuring those out on his own, and he then should be bringing the answer. I think oftentimes he can confuse that with leadership. “Well, that’s me leading.” Well, not necessarily. You could argue that’s one way to lead. Another way to lead is to show up and ask the question, like, “How do we figure this out?”
Stephen 37:35
That’s really difficult if you’re used to
Tim Matthews 37:38
Exactly, because there’s a vulnerability that comes with it. I was speaking about this on the inner circle with one of the guys recently, and he was, “Well, that’s vulnerable. Sorry, that’s weakness. I thought I’m supposed to lead. I thought I’m supposed to be the man and maintain the frame.”
Stephen 37:54
Man, come up with all the answers.
Tim Matthews 37:55
So there can be polarity, so that she can fall into me, so that she can trust me and that I’m a safe space. Well, her leaning into you and you being a safe space comes in part by her being able to feel you and you not crumble in those moments. You can show emotion in those moments, by all means tears, sadness, fear, vulnerability and within it, you can still be confident in your ability to lead through the storm without necessarily knowing how you’re going to get there. That’s leadership.
And if you choose to lean in in that way and figure things out together and sit in the storm together and see one another, there’s so much connection that can take place, and you can move through it as a couple. In that kind of scenario, it’s about the guy being able to hold the energetic container, so he’s not just crumbling and retreating. He could crumble and fall to his knees and be hurting and be in pain, and that’s totally okay. If he was to retreat, or if he was to pretend like he was okay when he wasn’t, that’d be more worrying for her, because it shows her that he’s kind of disconnected from himself. And if he’s disconnected from himself, how can she truly trust him? Or if he starts to become a victim and blame people or blame others or abdicate responsibility, all of those things he could still be there, stood right in front of her, stoic, if you will but if he’s left and vacated emotionally through blame, victimhood, whatever it may be, that’s way more detrimental than if he’s present but in pain. That’s going to instill way more trust in his partner than the former.
Stephen 40:14
As you were talking there, I got this picture of leadership the archetype of leadership of the guy being in front, like yards in front, pulling them on. “This is the way. Follow me.” This is the guide you through the path, as opposed to being fully behind, pushing them on, like, “Oh, leave me, leave me,” you know, victimhood kind of thing. Whereas what you’re talking about is holding her side by side and together. I think that’s where a lot of counseling and things like that, because it doesn’t get into that kind of detail, you can walk away from counseling sessions being like, “Right, okay, I’ve just got to be the strong masculine leader. I’ve got to demonstrate how to move forward.” And I think that’s what’s different about this movement, is that you get to really talk those issues through. And actually, when you get to this stage, the realization that real masculine leadership is holding her and walking with her side by side at the pace that’s comfortable for both of you, or challenging for both of you, whatever.
Tim Matthews 41:23
Well said.
Stephen 41:24
That’s beautiful.
Tim Matthews 41:27
You know, I often hear from guys who have gone to counseling guys in the movement and the counselor is blown away by the way in which the guy is showing up, because he’s so self-aware of his own internal world. He is taking responsibility for his internal world. He’s taken accountability for the part that he plays. He’s able to validate her emotions and hold space for them. Whereas the guys on the flip side of that the horror stories I’ve heard of counseling, when the guy’s in there, and well, both people, then they’re just blaming each other, and they’re not seeing one another whatsoever.
Stephen 42:15
No.
Tim Matthews 42:15
“You did this. You had it.” You know, whenever there’s an accusation, of course the person’s going to get defensive, because they don’t want to look bad in the eyes of the person they love. So they want to address the facts. But anyway.
There’s one final thing I wanted to say to you: please don’t dim your light about life on the other side of divorce. Because I know that’s something that you seemingly struggle with, because you don’t want to discourage the guys coming into the movement. But there are guys that come in that have left it too late, and they end up going through divorce be it in The Activation Method, be it in The Brotherhood and they are terrified. They’re terrified of what it means for them, their family. I could go on you know that narrative.
So I think those guys having strong role models around them of other men that have not only made it through but are thriving on the other side of it and can speak from a place of experience and relatability, I think it’s vital. I’ve seen men and I’m sure you have too guys in the movement that have really struggled after divorce. I think should they have people, guys like you, that can speak with them, who can be by their side in the trenches with them, I’ve got to imagine it’s going to give them hope and inspiration.
So please don’t dim your light in the fear of making it sound like divorce is the way, because I know you don’t mean that. That’s right.
Stephen 44:05
That’s what I want to avoid. I think people that are in relationships and they’ve got a chance, they should grab that with both hands. I think you can do this work and co-create a really good new future within a marriage, but you can. My story is you can also do that after divorce as well.
Tim Matthews 44:24
You need to share that more. So, guys, you heard it from the man himself, Wild Card. A little bit of a different episode, but hopefully you found it useful nonetheless. And again, thank you for tuning in, and we’ll see you next time on the TPM Show.