Episode #1211
A marriage rarely crashes. It drifts, slowly, while one person keeps flying it and the other does not notice he stopped.
In this episode of The Powerful Man Show, Tim Matthews is joined by Stephen Fleming, who has been in the movement six years and has been through The Activation Method, The Alpha Reset, The Brotherhood, the Inner Circle and the Academy. Tim builds the whole conversation on a single image: a husband and wife are co-pilots of the same plane, sharing a locked cockpit, both reading the instruments, both responsible for the landing.
The failure mode he describes is not dramatic. A man gets tired. The tiredness creeps up so gradually he never registers nodding off. His wife tries to wake him, repeatedly, in whatever ways she has. Eventually she gives up on waking him and takes the captain's hat, because the plane still needs flying. The men who come to TPM usually arrive at the moment after that, when she has either taken the hat or put it down entirely and said she is done.
What makes this conversation useful is the part most men get wrong next. Waking up does not get you the hat back. Stephen is blunt about it from his own experience: she does not hand it over because you announced you are ready. She hands it over when you have flown consistently enough that she trusts you with it again, and that takes a while.
The discussion covers:
If the drift in this episode is familiar, two other conversations go further on the same ground. The Power of Two: Co-Creating a Meaningful Relationship takes the partnership argument further, and The Art of Leadership in Marriage: Building Trust with Your Spouse covers rebuilding the trust this episode says you have to earn back.
00:00 - What this episode is about
00:40 - Six years in: meet Stephen Fleming
01:22 - Falling asleep at the wheel
02:23 - You are both co-pilots
03:28 - She hands you the captain's hat
04:38 - A gift for you
05:40 - Checking the vitals, and the locked cockpit
07:24 - What co-piloting looks like after six years
08:27 - "Today I'm only at 10%"
09:22 - Why she does not hand the hat back
10:01 - Where leadership fits in
11:46 - Turbulence and the seatbelt sign
13:14 - When the plane is already going down
14:52 - What belongs in the relational space
15:43 - Venting without dumping
17:52 - The cave, and why the problem never moves
19:36 - Into me, you see
22:25 - Owning what you have not figured out
26:21 - The missed moments of connection
27:48 - Check-ins, date nights, chief fun officer
29:34 - Top three takeaways
31:25 - Your homework
What does it mean to fall asleep at the wheel in a marriage?
It means drifting into autopilot without noticing. Tim Matthews describes it as tiredness that creeps up so slowly you never register nodding off, so you are not making a decision to disengage, you simply stop watching where the relationship is heading. The tell is usually not your own awareness of it. It is that your wife has been trying to wake you in various ways for a while, and eventually stops trying.
Why won't my wife let me lead again after I've started doing the work?
Because waking up and announcing you are ready is not the same as proving it. Stephen Fleming puts it plainly from his own experience: she does not hand the captain's hat back when you say you want it. She says she is running this show because she does not yet trust you to. The hat comes back after you have flown effectively and consistently for long enough that the trust rebuilds, and that takes time rather than a conversation.
Isn't vulnerability the opposite of leadership?
Tim's argument is the reverse. Leadership is initiating, and turning towards your wife and letting her into your world is initiating connection. The stoic version where you figure everything out alone and always have the answer is lonely, and it is also not believable, because she already knows you do not have every answer. What reads as leadership is owning that you have not solved something yet, saying what you will do about it, and asking for her input.
What's the difference between venting to my wife and dumping on her?
Where it comes from and whether you say what you need. Tim is explicit that venting is fine: five or ten minutes to let off steam at the end of a long day, with no solution wanted. What makes it workable is naming it, something like "I just need to vent, I just need you to listen," and not coming from a place of victimhood. Dumping is handing her the problem without that frame, and expecting her to carry it.
What should I stop trying to solve on my own?
Anything that is affecting your presence at home. Tim describes his own old pattern of taking an issue in the relationship away with him, journaling it, thinking it through, listening to audiobooks, arriving at a solution, and coming back, while his wife had no idea any of it was happening. Then wondering why the situation had not moved. Some problems only get solved inside the relationship, with the other person in the room.
My wife says I'm not self-aware. What does she actually mean?
That she cannot tell whether you have noticed. Tim calls the lack of self-awareness the number one complaint women have about men, and the point is not that you need an answer. For her to relax and feel safe she needs to know you are aware that something is there, even if you do not yet know what to do about it. Stephen's image is that she is running a browser with a hundred tabs open, most of which do not need addressing, and when you act like there is nothing to see, that is when the connection stops.
What's the difference between honest uncertainty and just unloading?
Tim draws a hard line between the two. "I have not figured this out yet, but I will, here is what I am going to do, and I will come back to you on it" is leadership inside vulnerability. "I just don't know, I don't have a clue what I'm going to do, and it's all overwhelming" is something different, because at that point she has to ground and anchor you. Both are honest. Only one of them is still co-piloting.
If you want to dive deeper into identifying your core needs and running them through practical filters, claim your free Needs vs. Wants Cheat Sheet by emailing “Need” to VIP@thepowerfulman.com. You can also discover how to assess your relationship dynamics and learn our proven step-by-step methodology by watching the free video training at The Powerful Man Scales.
Also listen on:
Tim Matthews 00:00
Let's talk about the importance of not falling asleep at the wheel.
Stephen 00:03
Not really looking at what's coming along the road and where you're going.
Tim Matthews 00:06
You guys are both co-pilots of your relationship.
Stephen 00:10
I think you need an openness to be continually learning and adjusting.
Tim Matthews 00:14
There's times where it just has to be the two pilots.
Stephen 00:17
The communication thing is massive.
Tim Matthews 00:19
The number one thing that I hear men say that they want is connection.
Stephen 00:24
I'm aware of this. I don't necessarily have the answer, and I don't need to have the answer. Can't co-pilot without communicating.
Tim Matthews 00:40
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the TPM Show. My name's Tim Matthews. I am your host, and I'm joined by Mr. Stephen Fleming, also known as—
Stephen 00:48
King of Cheese.
Tim Matthews 00:49
The King of Cheese. So Stephen's been in the movement for—
Stephen 00:55
Six years.
Tim Matthews 00:56
Six years now. You've been through The Activation Method, The Brotherhood, The Alpha Reset, the Inner Circle, events in the Brotherhood, the Alumni, all sorts.
Stephen 01:08
I think I've done just about everything.
Tim Matthews 01:12
I think you have. Have you been through the Academy?
Stephen 01:18
Working through the Academy.
Tim Matthews 01:19
Okay.
Stephen 01:20
So, not quite.
Tim Matthews 01:22
Let's talk about the importance of not falling asleep at the wheel. What comes to mind? I'm curious, and I'm just throwing something out there. But when we talk about not falling asleep at the wheel, what do you think?
Stephen 01:39
Well, first of all, obviously you're talking about this in a metaphorical sense rather than a literal sense, but the parallels are there, aren't they?
If you fall asleep at the wheel, it's because you've kind of gone into a sort of autonomous mode of not really looking at what's coming along the road and where you're going.
For me, particularly in the context of my TPM journey, it's kind of like that thing of being aware of what's coming down the track, not just assuming that you're going to carry on down the road and that nothing's going to come and hit you.
Tim Matthews 02:16
Yeah, there's definitely some of that. Obviously, you can't read my mind, so I'll tell you what I'm thinking.
So, the idea of not falling asleep at the wheel. In your relationship, I'm going to speak to you because it's just easier. You're here with me. For you and Jane, you guys are both co-pilots of your relationship.
Now, I've got to imagine part of what brought you into The Activation Method was probably because over time you might have fallen asleep at the wheel. As a result, she would have had to step up and become the captain of that plane.
Usually, you probably wouldn't have even known that you'd fallen asleep at the wheel because it happens so slowly. That tiredness just kind of creeps up on you, and before you know it, you've nodded off.
Stephen 03:20
True.
Tim Matthews 03:21
Now, Jane will have tried to wake you up throughout that journey in various ways.
Then finally, at some point, you do wake up, and you're like, "Hey, I'm ready to co-pilot again." At which point, she puts the captain's hat on you and says, "I'm done. You can pilot this thing. Once you show me that you are going to pilot effectively and consistently, I'm going to get back in the cockpit with you because I need a break right now. I've been doing this thing on my own."
But this is the key: the idea of being co-pilots together, the idea of being able to handle the turbulence together, the idea that as you both are co-piloting this plane, you both individually and collectively are going to be looking at the various instruments. Is it on course? "Hey, we've gone a little bit off course. Let's get it back on course." What's the fuel like?
Doug Holt 04:38
Hey guys, I just want to share something with you. I'm sure we can both agree that in order to fix something, you need to know what's broken, and not only need to know what's broken, but a step-by-step methodology on how you can fix it. That's the easiest way to do it, right? Otherwise, you're going to be toiling with things.
That's why I created a free training, a training that not only shows you how you got to where you are, where your relationship is missing that love, respect, admiration, and even intimacy that it used to have, to how you get it back. How do you retain that, where your wife's looking at you the same way she used to look at you when she said, "I do"?
I don't know about you, but for me, when my wife looks at me like I'm her man, I feel like I can conquer the world, and I want that for you.
Simply go over to thepowerfulman.com/scales. That's thepowerfulman.com/scales, and I have a free video training for you. You can just click play and see if this resonates for you.
Now back to the podcast.
Tim Matthews 05:40
I'm not familiar with piloting. Some of the guys in the movement would kill me because I know a lot of the guys in the movement are very familiar with it. So I don't know all the instruments in the cockpit.
But the point is, you've got to be checking the vitals, right? And you will be as the journey continues because at the start of the journey, you have a destination. That destination could be the marriage vows that you give, it could be the vision that you both have.
Then, as you said about that journey, it's so easy, as I said a moment ago, to let life come in and fall asleep at the wheel.
However, if we stick with the cockpit analogy, for those two pilots to co-pilot, the cockpit is usually locked. There's restricted access. There's times where it just has to be the two pilots, where they're in there, both aware, both present, and both navigating that plane.
Oftentimes, for many reasons, men and women—but I'll speak to the guys in this instance—forget this, and they think what it looks like for them to be a co-pilot is for them to make money. So that's what they do.
This is through no fault of their own. That's the lie, essentially, that we've been fed through society, right? Women want to be provided for financially before emotionally. That's not the case, as we all know.
So, as we talk about being a co-pilot right now, I'm curious: what does it look like for you to be a co-pilot with Jane?
Stephen 07:24
I think it's definitely something that is always evolving and changing. Maybe what I thought of as being a co-pilot six years ago, when I first came into TPM, is probably different to what it is now. That's because we both have more understanding. We're both changed as people over the last six years or so.
Tim Matthews 07:50
And more flights under your belt.
Stephen 07:51
Yeah, more flights under the belt. That's right.
People talk about, what is it, 10,000 hours to get mastery in something? I don't think anyone's ever mastered a marriage or a relationship, but I think you need an openness to be continually learning and adjusting.
One thing that springs to mind for sure, when we talk about the analogy of falling asleep at the wheel, is that sometimes you have to accept and communicate with the other person as to how you're doing energetically.
There are times where, to be able to say, "Actually, today I'm only at 10%. I'm going to need you to drive or you to fly because I'm really struggling today."
Tim Matthews 08:27
Think about that. Co-pilots, the pilots will take a break. But there's a communication element to that, right? To your point, "Hey, I'm tired. I'm going to take 10 minutes."
Stephen 08:36
Yeah, and something that I wouldn't have always acknowledged either in myself or to Jane.
"How are you today?"
"I'm fine. I'm fine."
Of course, she knows straight away I'm not fine because she wouldn't be asking the question.
To be able to say, "Actually, yeah, today I'm struggling a bit," and to kind of help each other to co-pilot, as you say, that's a part of it. To be able to say, "Well, this is what we're going to need."
The communication thing is massive. Not making any assumptions. If you're co-piloting a plane or something, then you're not going to make an assumption about what the other person is doing or where they're at.
Tim Matthews 09:15
No, you're not. You're not going to vacate the cockpit without saying anything either. You're going to make sure you're available. You're going to make sure you're present.
In this analogy, if you did fall asleep at the wheel and you were to wake up, you might find that the other pilot isn't going to give you back control immediately.
Stephen 09:34
Yeah, that's also true.
You said at the start about maybe they've taken the pilot's hat and gone, "Right, okay, captain's hat." In my experience, it's not given back if you say, "Right, I'm awake now. I'm going to take it." That's not given back to you straight away.
They're like, "Okay, no. Actually, I'm not going to give you that. I'm going to run this show because I don't trust you to do it."
So that trust element is huge.
Tim Matthews 10:01
I think, as we again look at this idea of co-piloting, I've got to imagine there's questions that'll be going off in some of the men's heads that have been in the movement a while. "Well, where does leadership fit into this?"
I think it fits in with this idea of the captain because you'll have a captain, but you still have co-pilots. The captain will be the person that will set the direction but who will consult with the other pilot.
There'll be a communication that takes place. "Hey, this is what I'm seeing. What are you seeing? This is where I think we're at. Can you just check this? How are you doing? Do you need a break?"
There's, to your point, a communication that occurs so that both people can stay on the same page, and therefore they can both navigate the plane accordingly.
There's also some updates that tend to get shared with the passengers, right? It's not a case of you just take off and then you don't hear from the captain again. There's some regular updates so people know what's going on. They know where they are in the air. They know when they might be landing. Where are they going to be landing? Are they going to land at the destination, or have they had to go a little bit off course? What is going on?
Because there's a lot of trust those passengers are putting in the hands of the captain and the pilot too.
The same is true of life, right? Your relationship. The passengers may be kids, whatever age they are. Might be your business. The passengers may be your team. Whatever it may be.
But I think this idea of falling asleep at the wheel and the relationship being something that you both are responsible for—
Stephen 11:46
Yeah, and you can't become complacent or nod off because you think everything's okay. Because there are always going to be things coming along—
Tim Matthews 11:59
Turbulence.
Stephen 11:59
Turbulence. They're going to present challenges, either individually or collectively, that need—it's back into that channel of communication and deciding, and also the conversation. "Okay, this is the turbulence. How are we going to deal with this? Who's going to deal with it?"
Because one thing in a relationship with that is not for both of you necessarily to do the thing that needs to be done.
Tim Matthews 12:25
And what happens when you hit turbulence? Seatbelt sign comes on.
Stephen 12:29
Yeah, seatbelt sign comes on.
Tim Matthews 12:30
Right, you've got to strap in because while you may have an idea of how long turbulence might last, you also don't know how it's going to go necessarily.
Stephen 12:39
No, that's right.
Tim Matthews 12:39
You don't know how turbulent it's going to be, but the thing is, you are both going to head into the turbulence together, which is akin to turning towards one another instead of away from one another.
I know that this idea is a little bit counterintuitive to what we kind of say as a tagline for The Activation Method, which is how to fix your marriage without talking about it.
Really, that helps the guy to be able to put out the fire in his marriage and start to have his wife turn towards him again, and start to rebuild and regain her trust.
Because at that point, usually when a guy comes to us, his wife has usually either taken the captain's hat, or she's like, "I'm done," and the plane is going down. Nobody's wearing the captain's hat at that point.
Then the guy's like, "Oh crap, I better take the wheel."
But if you imagine a cockpit, it's almost akin to her sitting with her arms crossed at that point while he's trying to pull the plane out, trying to resist it crash-landing, essentially.
So The Activation Method helps to even that journey out a little bit, gets her interested in putting her hands back on the wheel again and starting to share some of the duty and the journey.
But ultimately, for a relationship to really get to the levels that you and Jane are at, and that a lot of the men are at in the movement, it takes two people. It takes both people being willing to co-pilot.
If there's something that isn't okay in the relationship, it's on both people to bring that up, right? Let's say, for example, with you and Jane. Jane says to you, "Hey, you okay?" Like you said, in that moment, ideally you'd be honest rather than feel the need to pretend like you've got it together because you might feel embarrassed or whatever it may be.
Or if you do that, just come back around and clean it up that day or as soon as possible. Because in that moment, what you guys are then doing is saying, "Hey, the relationship is this important. It's that important to both of us that we're going to not let anything get in the way of it."
Hence the whole co-piloting thing.
Certain things belong in the relational space. There's certain things that shouldn't be held by an individual on their own. Most things, quite frankly, should be held in the relational space.
If you've got things you're struggling with at work and they're affecting your presence at home, those struggles need to be brought into the relational space so that the other person is aware of them.
Now, how you bring it into the relational space is important. You don't want to be a victim. You don't want to be dumping all your problems. I was going to say you don't want to be dumping all your problems onto her. However, it is okay to vent.
Stephen 15:40
Yeah, it's a balancing act, isn't it?
Tim Matthews 15:43
It is.
Again, we say a lot, depends where it comes from. But with Amelia and I, for example, she has some brilliant ideas, and she likes to share them. I don't want to hear them sometimes.
There's times when, obviously, you get it, right? When you run a company or whatever it may be, there's a reason why people say it's lonely at the top.
There's times for me, I don't know about you, where I just have to vent for five minutes, 10 minutes. I don't need a solution. I don't even necessarily want to talk about that thing in the moment, but I've got to let off some steam.
Yes, I can go and work out. Yes, I can go and journal. Yes, I've got these other things I can do, which I do. Sometimes those things are not really appropriate in the moment.
Let's say I've just finished up a long day and it's 7 p.m., 8 p.m., whatever it may be. I'm about to spend the evening with Amelia, but I've got these things that are bubbling up inside of me. I've learned it's much better for me to just vent in that moment, get it out, and then we can connect.
So in that moment, if I'm bringing things over to her, the way in which I do it, not from a place of victimhood, being very clear on what it is I'm wanting from her in the moment: "Hey, I just need to vent. I just need you to listen. I just need to get this out."
That can, at times, belong in the relational space. If there's concerns that you have, it belongs in there. This is the whole idea of you guys co-piloting and navigating things together.
What I used to do a lot is, let's say there was an issue in the relationship, I would go off, take myself away, journal, think it through, listen to audiobooks, talk to people, come up with a solution of what I thought I needed to do in order to fix the issue, then come back to the relationship. All the while, Amelia's had no idea that I was even doing that.
Then wonder why, when I come back to the relationship, "Hey, how come this problem, how come this situation isn't moving?"
Well, it's because sometimes certain problems need to be solved within the relationship with the other person. They need to be spoken through with her rather than me going off into my cave, putting it all on me, me being like, "Hey, I can solve the problem. I can be the hero. I'll take this on."
In actual fact, I've learned that it's just much easier for me to turn towards her, get curious, share how I'm feeling, ask her questions, and sometimes even process things together.
Stephen 18:35
Yeah, there's a vulnerability in doing that, isn't there?
I'd have been the same as you, problem solver. "Right, I can solve this." Also, for me, there's a bit of perfection in that. Be able to come back with, "Oh, here is the solution."
Actually, to be vulnerable in it, to accept that maybe it's going to be a bit messy to resolve that, as you say, within that relational space. It's not going to necessarily be perfect. It might not be resolved. It might be something that's going to take more time to repair.
Tim Matthews 19:08
It's a control thing, isn't it? If I go into my cave and I work through things on my own, to your point, there's less vulnerability required. It's less messy.
But really, I miss an opportunity in that moment because us processing something together, Amelia and I, let's say, within the processing, yes, it may get a little messy at times, but that in itself is connection. Because we're both letting one another into our inner worlds, which is where the connection happens.
Intimacy: into me, you see. I love that saying. I love that saying.
As men, we all want intimacy, physical, emotional, whatever. Yet we also tend to be very afraid of the very thing that we want, if you go with the idea of "into me, you see."
Stephen 19:58
That's something which has certainly been a challenge for me over the years.
Jane would have said to me, "You're like a brick wall. I don't know what you're thinking. I don't know where..." She would, as most women are, be very good at sharing what's on her mind, how she's feeling. She wasn't getting much back.
Sometimes I got it wrong, particularly, for instance, in the work environment. Before I was doing what I do now, we worked in the same business together, and we got into a very bad habit of bringing that home with us and talking about it. She was like, "Okay, no, this needs to stop." And it did.
But then it meant when I was doing my business, I fell back into that a bit and then stopped and thought, "Actually, she doesn't want to know about my business." So I went too far the other way, to the point where she's like, "Well, I don't know what's going on with you and work because you don't talk about it."
So the pendulum had swung too far the other way.
Now I can go, like you do, "God, I just need to vent about something that happened today." Not looking for a solution, just want to connect and share a little bit. That's the difference.
Tim Matthews 21:02
Yeah, this is leadership. Turning towards your partner and letting her into your world is a form of leadership.
Because what is leadership? In essence, leadership is to initiate. So in that moment, you are initiating connection through conversation. You're initiating some connection in that moment.
I think a mistake I made a long, long time ago was thinking leadership was almost like a stoic thing, that I would have to figure things out on my own, show up strong, and always have it all together. Always have the solution.
But that's very lonely. If you don't include your partner in the solution-making process, then it's not as much of a partnership.
Stephen 21:55
And it's not authentic because they know that you haven't got the answers to everything.
If you're making out that you have, again, it's a bit of a balancing act because, at the same time, you don't want to be seen as the person in the relationship that can't cope with anything.
It's okay to be, "Yeah, I haven't got this," but at the same time, it can be unattractive to give the impression that you haven't got any of it. You've got to give an idea that you've got most of it together, and that you don't bring every single issue to the other person, do you?
Tim Matthews 22:25
Well, let's just—because this is what happens with the guys when I speak to them about this inner conflict that's going on in you right now, right? Do you sense that inner conflict?
Again, let's say you turn towards—it's this whole idea of co-piloting, right? You could turn towards Jane and, in that moment, bring something that you haven't yet figured out.
But if you are owning the fact that you haven't yet figured it out, but you will, and you'd love her input, that's very different than you pretending that you have the answers when really you don't. Because you know in yourself that you don't. You're trying to pretend like you do. It creates, again, internal conflict, disconnect.
So that vulnerability piece there of just saying, "Hey, this is what's going on for me. This is what I'm feeling. This is what I'm thinking. I don't have the solutions yet or the clarity yet, but I will. I'm going to sit with this. I'm going to do X, Y, Z on this. And once I've got more clarity or information, whatever it may be, I'm going to come back to you on this."
That in itself is leadership within the vulnerability.
Stephen 23:47
Yeah, it's honest as well. It's honest. You're admitting—
Tim Matthews 23:49
That you don't have all the answers. You're not trying to pretend to be something that you're not.
You don't have to get confused in this, "Oh my God, I need to be perfect. I shouldn't be bringing this to her. If I bring this to her, it makes her uncertain. I'm indecisive. I don't know where I'm going."
No, no. You're a human being.
Stephen 24:05
If you take it as a baseline that women are very good at sensing when you haven't got an answer, you haven't got it together. You can't pretend because they know.
Tim Matthews 24:13
No, exactly.
Again, go back to the whole thing of the co-pilot, right? So you two are in the cockpit. You are the captain. You have hit a really surprising and dodgy part of weather that you did not anticipate. That wasn't supposed to be there, essentially. Some of your instruments might not be working in the way that they usually would, so you don't have as much clarity as you would usually have.
So what do you do? Well, you call in your instincts and your experience, and you may ask her and pull her in and ask her what she thinks, and share what it is that you're thinking.
Essentially, there's going to be a level of talking. Like I know what piloting's like. I don't have a clue. You're doing a great job, right? Wait till Big John hears this, and he's like, "Oh my God, Tim, what?"
But the point is, let her in on your experience. That's the key.
This whole idea of co-piloting is letting her in on your experience, bringing things into the relational space versus trying to just plow ahead on your own or shut down. There's a partnering that has to occur.
Yes, you get to bring the direction, but really, the direction can also come with the vulnerability, and it's okay for it to be messy.
It'd be very different if you said, "Hey, I just don't know, and I don't have a clue what I'm gonna do. There's a whole mixture of feelings that I feel, and, oh my God, it's so overwhelming."
That's very different, right? That is very different because at that point, she's gonna have to ground you and anchor you versus what I said a couple of moments ago.
Stephen 26:08
Yeah, you're right. There's a big difference between those two things, for sure.
Because without that, then you're not working as a unit. You're both solving problems in isolation, maybe in parallel, but potentially in different directions.
Tim Matthews 26:21
There's so many missed moments for connection in a relationship when you don't co-pilot, when you turn away from one another instead of turning towards one another. So many missed moments of connection.
Yet the number one thing that I hear men say that they want is connection. Second thing I'd say they want, and these two are very similar, is intimacy. Yet they're not willing to bring the very thing that they complain isn't there.
So how the hell can you complain about not having a thing if you're not willing to bring the thing yourself? It makes no sense.
If you do choose to take on this idea of co-piloting, yes, there's going to be turbulence. Yes, you're going to have to prove that you're worthy of wearing the captain's hat again, or being the captain again. And yes, you're probably going to have to strap in as well because it's going to be a bumpy ride at times.
But there is no other way. Unless you want to ground the plane or crash-land the plane, there is no other way other than through.
You choosing to show that you are willing to be a co-pilot first, and that you are willing to be a worthy enough co-pilot so she is willing to co-pilot with you as well. As I said, vulnerability is the only way to go about that.
This is where check-ins can be really useful. It's where date nights can be really useful. It's where being the CFO, the Chief Fun Officer, is really useful. It's where knowing what you need versus what you want, so you can organize your life around what you need.
It's about you being urgent with the things that are important to you, connection or whatever it may be—
Stephen 28:08
Versus finding the way that works.
Tim Matthews 28:09
Sitting on the fence, yep.
Stephen 28:11
Because it doesn't have to be formal. For us, it doesn't work if we say, "All right, we're going to sit down once a week and have a formal—"
Tim Matthews 28:22
No, just like a bloody board meeting.
Stephen 28:25
But for us, it's maybe a 10-minute coffee after the kids have gone to school. A chance to just connect and go, "Oh, actually, yeah, we've got this thing here."
It's something you've been describing that I've got much better at over the last few years, to be able to frame it in a way and bring it in a leading way to say, "Got this. Haven't quite figured it out yet, but I've seen it."
I think one of the biggest objections and complaints I've heard over the years is that I don't see—
Tim Matthews 28:48
Self-awareness.
Stephen 28:50
Don't see the things.
Tim Matthews 28:51
One of the number one complaints from women about men, when they lack self-awareness—in order for them to relax and feel safe, they need to know that you're aware, even if you don't know what to do.
That's okay, as long as you're aware that you, to your point, you've seen it, and you're going to figure out what to do.
Stephen 29:13
They've got 1,000,001 things running in their heads that they've seen that don't necessarily need addressing, but they're aware of them. They're like on a carousel or a browser with loads of tabs. They've got that, that, that, that.
If you're giving the impression that you're like, "Right, yeah, nothing to see here," then you wonder why you're not getting a connection.
Tim Matthews 29:34
Top three takeaways.
Stephen 29:38
I think for me, again, it's a work in progress, as we all are. It's that leading vulnerability, as you say. Bringing stuff to the table and saying, "This is on my mind," or, "I'm aware of this. I don't necessarily have the answer, and I don't need to have the answer." But sharing it and being open with it is probably the biggest one for me on this topic, definitely.
If you have fallen asleep at the wheel, you're not going to get the captain's hat back straight away. In fact, you're not going to get the hat, and she's not going to take her hands off the wheel for a while. It's going to take time, but it can happen and does happen.
The third one would be just that leadership thing generally.
Tim Matthews 30:30
What do you mean?
Stephen 30:32
For me, in my experience, it's been around taking action and decisions without going to your co-pilot, going, "Is this the right thing to do? Should we do this? Should we do that? Should we do the other?"
Taking some action and responsibility. It might not be the right thing, but sometimes it's better than doing nothing.
Tim Matthews 30:54
Oh, for sure.
Stephen 30:56
And it's also better than loading that decision back onto them.
Tim Matthews 30:59
Yeah, and again, if you are bringing things, if you're co-piloting, then it's not going to be a surprise when you make a decision because you know it's—
So therefore, it's less abrasive and less shocking to go with it.
Stephen 31:13
Framing, "I realized there was this. I've done that. May or may not be the right thing."
Communication. Communication is the thing. Can't co-pilot without communicating.
Tim Matthews 31:25
So guys, I would like for you to consider: what is it that you are taking into a cave and trying to solve on your own that really ought to belong in the relational space?
Make a list of those things, and consider what is it that you can start bringing into that relational space so that it opens up some communication, and thus some connection.
Like we said, that in itself is leadership. You don't have to have everything figured out. You don't need all the answers.
The point of this is for you to be aware, and for you to open up the opportunity for you to co-pilot once more.
So we'll see you next time on the TPM Show.