From Courtroom Battles to Family Balance: Expert Insights on Divorce

Episode #1204

When high-performing CEOs, founders, and business owners enter family court, they often encounter a stark culture shock. In the boardroom, business leaders rely on charisma, persuasive negotiation, and strategic dominance to win deals and direct outcomes. However, transferring boardroom tactics directly into a family court setting frequently leads to severe legal and financial setbacks. Family court operates under strict judicial authority, where a judge holds total jurisdiction over dividing wealth, business equity, real estate, and parental decision-making.

In this conversation, Doug Holt sits down with April Jones, founder and CEO of Jones Law Firm, one of Colorado’s top family law practices. April Jones brings formidable legal credentials and broad industry authority to the episode: she holds a Juris Doctor from UC Hastings (1991) and possesses over 35 years of legal experience handling more than 3,500 complex family law and high-net-worth divorce cases. A multi-year Super Lawyers honoree and Denver Business Journal Outstanding Woman in Business, she serves as incoming President of the Colorado Bar Association and has been appointed to judicial nominating commissions by two Colorado governors and U.S. Senators Michael Bennet and John Hickenlooper to help select federal judges.

The episode explores how business leaders can navigate family law strategically without destroying their business or family relationships:

• The Pitfalls of Charisma in Court: Why trying to charm or out-talk a spouse during divorce proceedings backfires, especially after years of marital friction.
• The Hidden Costs Beyond Legal Fees: How prolonged divorce litigation drains cognitive bandwidth, lowers business revenue, and damages parenting time.
• The Dangers of Hiding Assets: Why attempting to move money, undervalue businesses, or hide funds triggers forensic audits, skyrockets legal fees, and destroys judicial credibility.
• Proactive Strategic Positioning: How addressing personal vulnerabilities early, such as voluntarily undergoing alcohol testing or establishing parenting growth plans, protects long-term parental rights.

Navigating a relationship crisis requires moving away from pure legal warfare and taking genuine personal ownership. By understanding how to avoid common pitfalls discussed in how to win a divorce and applying foundational tools from The Activation Method, men can protect their leadership, minimize conflict, and secure the best path forward for their families.

Timestamp Chapters

00:00 - Introduction: Boardroom vs. Courtroom Dynamics
00:58 - Guest Introduction: Credentials and Background of April Jones
03:21 - Why High-Powered CEOs and Founders Struggle in Family Court
05:38 - The Charisma Trap: Why Business Negotiation Fails with an Ex-Spouse
08:09 - The True Cost of Divorce: Emotional Toll and Business Revenue Dips
11:06 - Sedation, Workaholism, and Escapism During Marital Crisis
12:20 - Pre-Assessment Benefits: Seeing the Reality Before Filing
14:30 - The Catastrophic Mistake of Hiding Assets and Moving Money
15:13 - Doug Holt Mid-Roll: A Man’s Guide on How to Save Your Marriage
17:01 - Why Business Leaders Fail When Acting as Their Own Lawyer
19:27 - Infidelity, Sexless Marriages, and the Warning Signs of Separation
22:33 - Inside the Law Firm Intake: Self-Reflection and Pre-Litigation Planning
24:38 - Addressing Skeletons: Proactive Strategies for Custody and Asset Protection
27:37 - Preventing Child Neglect and Avoiding the “Double Down on Work” Trap
31:19 - Gray Divorces: Why Separations Are Increasing in Midlife and Later
32:21 - Parting Advice: How Changing Your Dance Step Changes the Entire Relationship
34:01 - Closing Remarks and Taking Massive Action  

RELATED EPISODES

• How to Win a Divorce
• What to Do When She Doesn’t Want to Be Married Anymore
• Navigating Marital Challenges: Staying or Leaving
• Revisit: Divorce Day

Frequently Asked Questions

Why do successful CEOs and business owners struggle in family court?
CEOs and business owners struggle in family court because they attempt to use boardroom negotiation tactics, charisma, and dominance in an environment governed strictly by judicial authority. Trying to control the process or out-negotiate an ex-spouse often alienates judges and increases litigation costs.

What happens if a spouse tries to hide assets or move money during a divorce?
Attempting to hide assets, shade income, or undervalue a business triggers court-ordered forensic tracing. This significantly increases legal costs, damages credibility with the judge, and often results in severe financial penalties.

How does going through a divorce affect a business owner’s company?
Divorce creates intense emotional stress and cognitive fatigue, which often leads to reduced focus, poor decision-making, and a noticeable dip in business revenue. Prolonged legal battles distract executives from daily operations and strategic growth.

Can changing your personal behavior stop a divorce process?
Yes, changing how you show up in the relationship alters the entire dynamic. When a husband sets aside his ego, listens to his wife’s concerns, and changes his daily actions, it disrupts the cycle of conflict and can open the door to reconciliation.

Transcription

Doug Holt 00:00

A lot of men get fixated on the dollar amount.

April Jones 00:03

It can be disastrous, to be perfectly honest.

Doug Holt 00:06

She literally helps pick the judges.

April Jones 00:09

In family law, we are dividing your money, your property, and your children.

Doug Holt 00:15

They start to look to hide money, hide assets.

April Jones 00:20

Let's see what we can do to get you to your next best life with whatever the skeletons are.

Doug Holt 00:37

Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the TPM Show. Today I have a very special guest. But before I get into that, do you know the difference between the boardroom and the courtroom, and why a lot of successful businessmen get destroyed in family court? Well, that's what we're going to talk about today with our very special guest, April Jones. April, thank you for being here.

April Jones 00:58

Thanks for having me.

Doug Holt 01:00

April, because you have so many accolades in fact, you're leaving tonight for a gala where you're getting yet another award I'm going to take a moment, if I can, and just read your bio. It's not something we normally do here, but you have such an eclectic bio that I want to give the men and the women listening to this a reason why they should stick around and listen.

So guys, April isn't just a family lawyer. She's the founder and CEO of Jones Law Firm, one of Colorado's largest and most elite family law firms, which she built from the ground up 26 years ago in 2000. Her track record is also extremely impressive, with over 35 years of legal experience, earning her JD from UC Hastings in 1991. Her and her team have handled 3,500 complex family law and divorce cases.

She's a multi-year Super Lawyers honoree, and she was named Outstanding Woman in Business by the Denver Business Journal. As the incoming president of the Colorado Bar Association, I'm wondering if you sleep, April, but that's another story.

Her influence is massive. She has been appointed to nominating commissions by two Colorado governors. Additionally, U.S. Senators Michael Bennet and John Hickenlooper hope I said that right appointed her as the co-chair of the committee that reviews and recommends federal judges in Colorado. She literally helps pick the judges.

What I really love about her motto, her firm's motto, and they're unapologetic about this, is, "We choose sides, and that side's yours." She's famously known for treating family law like a game of chess, removing emotional drama, and planning three moves ahead of the opposition.

Gentlemen, welcome April.

So April, thanks again, like I said, for being here. I don't normally read a bio, but you have so much experience. This is a question that, at the TPM Show we've been around for 10 years we get so many questions about family law, and men are confused on what to do. They're in all kinds of camps.

What are you seeing, especially when you see high-performing CEOs or founders approaching family law and trying to reconcile or move to the other side?

April Jones 03:21

When you get a high-powered CEO, founder, business person who is used to creating, winning, running, winning, and they end up in family court, it can be disastrous, to be perfectly honest.

It's something that I make a point of getting ahead of, having my team get ahead of it, because it's almost inevitable, depending on the personality that we're talking about, that the court just really isn't the place for them.

When you go to court and the judge has the authority and the jurisdiction to tell you what to do, there are certain personality types that don't like that.

Then on top of it, what makes it just worse is, in family law, when you're dividing your money, your property, and your children, what else is there? Other than your health, there is nothing more important than that.

You are having a stranger literally tell you what to do, literally tell you if you can see your own children, literally tell you if you have the power to make decisions for them, whether or not they can get braces or surgery or change daycare.

It can get pretty intense when you're matching a founder, CEO, in-charge, successful energy to that scenario.

Doug Holt 04:56

Yeah, I know that personality type very, very well. Over the past decade, we've had thousands upon thousands of business leaders come through our programs, and despite their best efforts, a percentage of them do end up in family court getting a divorce.

Something I've noticed, April, is none of them are good. Even the ones that think they're going to reconcile, everything's going to be okay, it sounds like a good split, something seems to happen when they hit court. Their wives or the other side seem to change their mind about having everything be equitable and easy.

Do you notice that?

April Jones 05:38

I do, and I would push back a little bit on whether their wives change their mind.

What I see a lot is, let's just take a strong even like a politician let's just take a strong personality. Their charm, their charisma, their presentation, what they can sell, that's their winning ability. That's their gift.

Just to go along with this, this person has been married 25 years, and he's been using his charm and his ability and his gift and his charisma and his ability to talk his wife into this and talk her into that.

Early days, it was probably with a smile and a fantastic date. Middle of the marriage, it could be a new diamond and more smiles.

What happens when they are on opposite sides of the courtroom and they are fighting over the things that matter most to them?

If the wife has been the one to initiate, she probably has made a decision in her mind, whether you get it or not, that you're not going to talk her into another thing.

What I find is my guy, "Well, April, I got it. I have a plan. I'm going to sit down. I'm going to talk to her." And you try to gently say, "It may not go your way," but you cannot tell this particular client in the first 30 days or the first 60 days.

But usually by the 90 days, when you know each other well and they hit the wall on trying to get her to agree because sometimes she won't say no, she'll just hem and haw, so they think it's a yes. It's not.

By 90 days, I can say, "She hates you. Okay? She hates you. She's not going to fall for your charm anymore because she hates you."

So let's accept that, and then let's regroup and come up with another plan to get you what you want and get you where you need to go. But you're not going to do it head-on, straight-on, the way you have the first two decades.

It's really hard to believe for a lot of men.

Doug Holt 08:04

Especially guys who are used to being in control and making all the decisions.

April Jones 08:09

Well, can you imagine how many times this particular guy has talked his wife into something? How many times? So many.

Doug Holt 08:16

Yeah. The rare occasion I get to talk to the wife of the men, the stories couldn't be more opposite when I talk to them about a situation. It goes the other way too, right? It takes two to tango, as they say.

One thing I've also noticed is a lot of men get fixated on the dollar amount at the beginning of the divorce, and then post-divorce, what they start to realize is, wow, there's another man potentially raising my child.

The emotional toll that sucks down on their business while they're going through this process is actually eating more money than the fees and the things that they're paying their expert, someone like yourself, to help them with.

Can you speak a little bit to that? Because I think us guys sometimes are naive to the costs of a divorce that are outside of just the financial ramifications.

April Jones 09:13

Yeah, the emotional costs on a founder or CEO, someone who runs their business, to divide their money, their property, and their children, and not in the way that they want, it's huge.

Even just dividing it when you think you want it, it's huge because you don't realize. You get half the time with your child on a best-case scenario, right? You have two fit and proper persons to parent.

Your daughter is a daddy's girl, and you see her half the time, and the other half the time she's with your wife's new boyfriend. She could be with the man your wife cheated on you with. She could be with your wife's new boyfriend, who is a thug, and you want him nowhere near your child.

There are so many ways to do this, but actually, there's a lot, but not really. They're all versions of the same thing. There's only so many ways you can break up. There's only so many ways you can cheat.

After a while I've been at our law firm or been doing family law for decades you can categorize it. There's a lot of heartbreak in breaking up.

When you're not at your best running your business, whether you're a man or a woman, if you're tanked and your brain, your secret sauce, is how you think and how you run your company, and you're just, let's just call it sad, I've seen men just drinking, vaping, womanizing, really self-medicating without real medication.

It can be a problem, and you see a dip in revenue immediately.

Doug Holt 11:06

Yeah, I see it all the time as well. It's so prevalent that we had to we have a large community, very private we have a special section. We call it the Next Chapter for men that are going through this process.

Sedation is what I would define it as: sedating yourself with pornography, drugs, gambling. A lot of men double down on work, right? Become workaholics. That's already their go-to.

April Jones 11:31

I thought you were going to say they double down on the gambling and the alcohol. I'm like, yeah, they do. They triple down.

Doug Holt 11:37

It's what makes them feel good and where they can hide and escape the reality of what's happening.

What I've noticed over, gosh, this past 10 years and I used to coach women and men beforehand the financial industry especially, what I've noticed is the woman makes a decision two to five years ahead of time. She's just trying to get through to him, hoping that he's going to change.

So by the time he's served papers or told that she needs to move on, she's already planned her exit and has made her decision to go through.

I do see people reconcile all the time, which is great. That's always what I'm looking for, saving the family.

April Jones 12:20

Yes.

Doug Holt 12:20

But it doesn't always happen.

I'm curious, April, when does a man approach you and your firm? What stage should they say, "Hey, you know what? I need to go talk to April or somebody like April, a family lawyer, and just see what my options are"?

April Jones 12:39

I like when people come and see us when they're thinking about it because if you see us before you've made up your mind, you can change.

You can say, "Wow, half of my pension?"

"Yes, half of your pension."

"But I was the one in the military."

"Yeah, you were."

Or, "I was the one on the sports field. I was the one taking hits."

"Yeah, you were."

"And I only get to see my children X, Y, and Z often?"

"Yes."

Once you can picture what your life could look like unless you make changes, then you could choose to make changes.

I've seen many men do that, get a pre-assessment of what the choices might be, and then make better choices. Then I never see him again, and I love that.

Doug Holt 13:29

That's the goal.

I just had a man I was talking to earlier today, and he's been in our programs for four years, and he just literally turned things around from complete separation to coming together and rebuilding.

I share that only because it's possible. A lot of people are out there going, "Hey, I'm willing to put the work in," but some aren't.

At the end of the day, us men that have been I've run many companies myself and been the CEO of other companies we can get a little egoic at times, thinking that we can fix everything, or put our head down and just hope it goes away.

One of the things that I do hear a lot in private conversations amongst these guys is, when they get a whiff or a sense that something might be going awry, it's not working out the way they want to, they start to look to hide money, hide assets.

I gotta imagine that's common, and I gotta imagine that you have some input and advice for those guys.

April Jones 14:30

Yes, it is common to start to hide assets, and they can do that while they're still trying to work things out.

You're like, "No, don't. Don't do the very thing that she wants to leave you for," which is, "He controls the money. He controls me. I can't do I have to turn in my receipts. I can't make a decision on my own, and I'm 40, 50 years old."

Then the response from the husband, "I want to work this out. I want this marriage. I value you," is to move money at the same time.

So it doesn't work out to move money anyway. We can we meaning the lawyer

Doug Holt 15:13

I want to buy you a gift.

Look, if your marriage is struggling, and let's be real, every marriage struggles at some point, but yours is struggling where you've lost that love, admiration, respect, I want to help you.

I want to buy you a copy of the book that I wrote, A Man's Guide on How to Save Your Marriage Without Talking About It.

In here, I've distilled over eight years of programs that we've developed at TPM to help men just like you save their marriages without talking about it. There's no fluff, no BS. It's an action plan that you can start using today to actually save your marriage and bring that love and respect back into your family, back into your house. You deserve it.

Look, all I ask is you pay the postage, you pay the shipping. I'll buy the book for you. That way, you can take massive action today.

Click the link or find it in the bio and get your copy now.

April Jones 16:06

Then the court will allow us to trace it all back, get a forensic expert and find it.

When she comes into our office and she doesn't trust you, and she tells us that you've been moving money or claiming to make way less than you have, and your company is really worth X, Y, and Z, your litigation costs have just skyrocketed. Just absolutely skyrocketed.

Your emotional damage to your spouse, that you're going to have to at least parent together with, or grandparent together with, or share business with, is just damaged.

It's not the tack to take.

I love that you have clients who are seeing you and getting counseling and getting better solutions and suggestions and paths forward than what might naturally occur to them, which is the money.

So thank you for the work you do. It's very, very important.

Doug Holt 17:01

Well, I appreciate that, and likewise.

I had a mentor of mine early on say, "Doug, always hire experts. You don't do your own dentistry. You shouldn't do your own legal as well."

I think a lot of the men that I work with, April, and our coaching team works with, they're so used to being at the top of the ladder, right? At the top of the tree, the rung, making decisions and moving things around.

Often I'll also hear from guys saying, "Hey, I built this. I built this empire, and I built it for my family."

April Jones 17:35

Yes.

Doug Holt 17:35

"And therefore I deserve X, Y, and Z."

What are you seeing within these men that they could be doing better or should be doing better when approaching someone like yourself or approaching their wife during this time?

April Jones 17:50

I have to emphasize counseling and having voices in your life that have been there, that have seen this.

Because part of what we're talking about with this guy we're describing, and his ego and his success, is he hasn't done this.

If he had studied this out and he was aware that he just had a big sign on him saying, "Big egotistical guy who's not going to pay attention to the court. In fact, you're going to piss the court off and they're going to slam you financially and personally," he'd make different choices.

If you can get that kind of education before you show up I mean, they're smart. That's why they're so successful. You need to learn what's happening and the mechanics of it, and then govern yourself accordingly.

But typically, with all the emotion that we're talking about, by the time people see me, they're ready. For the most part, people aren't calling a family law lawyer for that kind of pre-investigative work that I'm suggesting. They're calling because they can't take it another second.

When you can't take it another second, that's a completely different mindset, which I am sure you are very much aware of.

Doug Holt 19:00

Oh, absolutely.

Well, walk us through some of the scenarios, if you would, that you're seeing.

For example, we have infidelity on both sides. We have people become roommates, not lovers, is a common thing that I see.

What are you seeing in your practice, and how do those scenarios, if at all, differ when approaching family law?

April Jones 19:27

It's really interesting because you have infidelity, and we all know what that is, and it could be on either side.

Especially these days, I see moms, mature moms, who are in relationships that just tank the husband and the family. Then obviously we have more of the stereotypical, the husband gets someone who's smiling at him and telling him nice things, and he's not getting that at home.

One thing that still surprises me is, if you peel back some of the layers of these relationships, they're not sleeping together and they haven't slept together for two, three, or four years. They're looking like they are an engaged, active, comfortable couple.

When I hear that I mean, when there's not a physical reason for it, because that's different but when you're choosing to turn away from intimacy, you're often also choosing to turn away from a lot of what connects people.

I think that's like a death knell to a relationship, to think that all that separateness is still a healthy relationship. It just puts holes in it that allow other things to creep in and fill the gap in a way that's destructive to a marriage.

I think those should be warning signs that, "Oh, you need to get some help. You need to look into this. You need to rethink how you're treating the person who supposedly is the most important person in the world to you."

Doug Holt 21:08

Yeah, I love that.

It's shocking to me well, not really shocking anymore but a lot of the men, since I work with men, turn into almost teenagers with resentment.

"I'm doing this when she does X, Y, and Z. Then I'll show her gratitude, respect."

It becomes almost like two teenagers fighting and arguing in a home, and it becomes a sexless marriage for one reason or another. Resentment builds.

For some reason, the men seem to wait, and it's almost like they're surviving on opium, waiting for things to change. "If I wait another week, month, we'll do the vacation to Italy. We'll go here, get the lake house, and then things will be okay."

April Jones 21:55

What about have another baby? Don't forget.

Doug Holt 21:57

That's always a good idea, right? That's because babies aren't stressful at all.

Again, when you're working with a client, if you wouldn't mind, walk me through what intake, really basic, looks like.

Because I know a lot of men are apprehensive, and they feel as if, "Hey, if I call a family lawyer and she finds out," or the finality of what this actually means about my marriage.

There's a lot of apprehension for men to come in and actually make that phone call. So what does an intake look like if somebody, or an engagement, if somebody reaches out?

April Jones 22:33

Intake in our office is a little different than traditional, but you talk to a non-lawyer client relationship specialist who really asks, "What's going on? Why? What have you tried? What else have you tried? Did it work? What happens if you aren't able to make these changes that you're wanting? Tell me what you've done. What have you done to try to change?"

It's really diving into how you got here and what you've tried to do to change it, and what happens if you can never change it.

It really helps people do a lot of talking and self-reflecting, and then from there it makes it a little more clear what your next step should be.

Now, everybody doesn't. Some guys are just like, "Yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. Okay, I want to get divorced. Thank you, goodbye."

Some people have conversations that they never have with anyone. So it just depends on how you utilize it.

But when you talk to someone who does this all day, every day, it can really be cathartic in a lot of ways because there's not much you're going to say that we haven't heard.

As you said in the opening, we choose sides. So when we choose you, we're on your side. So whatever silly old bear thing you did, we'll figure it out.

Doug Holt 24:01

Yeah, I love that.

A lot of the men I personally, we have a large coaching staff I personally work with a lot of our higher-net-worth individuals who really value privacy, and I'll do a one-to-five-year engagement with most of them.

One of their concerns, and I gotta imagine that the carpenter listening to this has this concern too, is, "Oh crap, I don't want anybody to find out the skeletons in my closet."

Does that happen a lot when they're talking to you? Can you feel the apprehension of sharing and wanting to disclose the transgressions?

April Jones 24:38

People tend to share their skeletons with me.

Doug Holt 24:41

Is that because of your personality, that you're able to draw it out from them, or do you think?

April Jones 24:46

Yeah, I think so. But it's also the job, right?

You meet people, and we need to know what's on the table. We can't play chess if we don't know the pieces on the board.

We'll figure out the pieces on the board, and from there, let's see what we can do to get you to your next best life with whatever the skeletons are.

When it's your skeleton, you are not analyzing it the way you would if it was something else. You're not able to put your best brain on it, your best thoughts on it. You're going inward and being quiet with it.

You put it on the table here. We're like, "Okay, look, let's see how we can get around that, or let's see how we can accommodate that, or get there."

Even something as I mean, around here it's simple somebody with multiple DUIs. You see that a lot, actually, in some of our high-powered guys.

Now you know you have a drinking problem, or you have let's just go ahead and voluntarily get you tested, right? Let's sign up for random testing. Let's plan for it. Let's do some hair testing. Let's get you set up for success because we've started the process.

So by the time we get to where somebody's going to be pointing fingers at you, we're like, "Yeah, but we've got this report. We've got this proof."

We've already set you up for success. Even if it's a slower road, while the court's still waiting to see how you're going to perform, you have less parenting time, but we have a growth plan.

So the way I look at it, most things we can figure out how to still get you where you want to go, to your next best life.

We just need to plan for it and be thoughtful and strategic. I only hire lawyers who are thoughtful and strategic because that's what's going to make the difference with skeletons.

Doug Holt 26:51

I absolutely love that.

That's the first time I've ever heard that from a lawyer, on how proactive you're being. That's exactly how I would handle going in for a business, trying to figure out what the constraints are going to be before negotiation, before anything else that I'm going to do, and handling those straight on.

I absolutely think that's fantastic that your firm does that for the men because there is so much apprehension. "Oh no, I'm going to lose my kids, but I do drink a lot to calm down from the high stress," or whatever the case may be.

The fact that you guys do that again, I've talked to thousands of men, and this is the first time I've heard a family lawyer speak to this. I think it's absolutely fantastic.

April Jones 27:37

No, thank you.

One thing that I am worried about for my clients is the workaholic that you described. I mean, everybody's a workaholic, including me.

But the person who doubles down on work, sometimes that guy doesn't see his kids because he's doubling down on work, and he turns his back on his kids, who he loved.

For me, my parents got divorced. My father left back in the '60s when you could just leave. You could literally just leave. Old school, no repercussions, no child support following you from state to state.

I am so sensitive to that. I want my clients, my guys, to not feel like that's the choice they have to make, and that's the heartbreak their daughters have to live with.

I really try to that's one of the things we try to orchestrate in a different direction with counseling, with therapy, with good advice.

You get a 13-year-old girl, a 15-year-old girl oh my gosh, she's gonna hate you if you were Walt Disney. But when you compound it with, "You cheated on Mom," or "You this, Mom that," or whatever, it gets difficult.

My guys can double down on work and just go create a new family, and we don't want that either.

Do you see that?

Doug Holt 29:16

Yep. My parents divorced when I was five, and so I share that with the guys.

I remember the comments that were made, or being asked to come to court as a young child, and how that made me feel and the thoughts I made about that.

At the same time, I think what happens, April, is the men double down on work because that's the only place they're getting their significance.

They feel like, at work, "The team thinks I'm smart. They're telling me how great I am. I'm having these accomplishments."

But when I walk home, it feels like I'm lesser than. Nobody knows my accomplishments.

They also forget that the people that are telling them how smart they are and how good they are are people that are on their payroll. So it's very, very different coming through.

To your point, the men that we work with want to save their families. They want to be better fathers and grow their businesses.

They often forget the neglect of their child because they're telling themselves a story that, "When I get to X, this revenue goal or something in business, then I'll spend time with my family and my kids."

But that goalpost always is moving.

April Jones 30:28

Until it's like the "Cat's in the Cradle" song. "When you coming home, Dad?" "I don't know when, but we'll get together then."

And then the son says it to him, "I don't know, Dad. We'll get together then."

Doug Holt 30:40

Yeah, we play that song at one of our events that we do, so very appropriate.

You just see tears running down because men have lost years, if not decades.

Some people are I see men in their 70s. We're seeing a big influx of men in their 70s coming and applying for our programs, because you have to apply, because they're trying to make up in their later years, reflecting on life.

They're going through this situation where it seemed like divorces were happening in late 30s, early 40s to me, and now I'm seeing it happening a lot older, right into late 60s and 70s.

Are you seeing that too?

April Jones 31:19

Yeah, we are. We see all of it, but we are also seeing the older divorces as well. We call them gray divorces. Colorado is a leading gray divorce state. New Year's, we're number one.

Doug Holt 31:35

Okay, interesting. Do you work with people outside of Colorado, or just in Colorado?

April Jones 31:42

Primarily Colorado. I'm licensed in California as well. Some of my lawyers are licensed in Texas and some other states. So we do other state work.

Doug Holt 31:52

That's fantastic.

Well, I want to be very respectful of your time. Congratulations again on getting yet another award. I'm not sure where you're going to keep all these awards. A separate room.

But that's a testament to you.

For a man that's listening to this, that knows that things are on the edge, maybe divorce is on the table, what advice would you give to him? Parting advice for him to consider or him to do.

April Jones 32:21

It is underutilized, it's under-recognized, how much one person's behavior creates the dance in the relationship.

If you change your dance step, they have to change their dance step. You don't even realize the ecosystem that you have in your marriage, but you're as much a part of it as your wife is.

Putting down some ego and putting down some things that you think you believe in, to just listen to her and make the changes that she's asking.

Even if you don't mean it, just take the steps. Just try something different because then she'll move differently, and then you will mean it.

But it's so simple that it seems hard to believe.

Doug Holt 33:16

We, as men, were never taught emotional safety, communication properly.

My book is How to Save Your Marriage Without Talking About It. People wonder, "How do you do that?" By changing the way that you show up in that relationship is the key.

It's a learned skill. A lot of these are learned skills, and just like any other skill, they can be taught and learned and managed.

Absolutely love what you're doing, April. Thank you so much for going out there and advocating for families and trying to get them off the path of divorce.

But inevitably, sometimes that happens, and I'm glad that there's people like yourself and your firm out there to help them.

April Jones 33:58

Thank you. Thank you for the kind words and for the time today.

Doug Holt 34:01

Yes, absolutely.

Gentlemen, as I always say, in the moment of insight, take massive action. Don't go from one show to another. I used to do that, but heed April's words. She's got a lot of experience. She helps high-end men just like you save their families, and if not, get a resolution that you're looking for.

As she said at the end, you get to change. You lead in your company. Now you get to start leading at home, and that starts with self-leadership first and foremost.

Have an amazing day, and we'll see you next time on the TPM Show.