Episode #1210
"I'm fine" is almost never a status report. It is a decision she has already made about whether this conversation is worth the energy, and whether you are the kind of man who can hold the answer.
In this episode of The Powerful Man Show, Doug Holt is joined by his wife Erin Holt to work through a stack of questions TPM men have sent in on exactly this. The men want a formula. Erin's answer lands in the first ninety seconds: whether she is aware of it or not, she does not feel safe sharing. The rest of the conversation is about what that actually means and what to do about it.
Erin defines emotional safety from a woman's side. It is not about being agreed with. It is about whether she can go through the full arc of a feeling without being cut off, fixed, managed, or met with a man whose eyes glaze over. She points out that the arc itself takes about ninety seconds if it is allowed to finish, which can feel like forever to the man sitting across from it. When that space does not exist, she stops using it, and what gets shut down comes out sideways later.
Doug translates it into the image TPM men already know. Picture a woman alone in dark woods with a deer walking beside her. Now replace the deer with a wolf. DEER is the deactivated man: Defend, Excuse, Explain, React. The wolf is Wise, Open, Loving, Fierce. She reads which one is in the room energetically, long before you open your mouth.
The discussion covers:
If this one is hitting close to home, two other conversations go deeper on the same ground. Emotional Safety: The Key to a Thriving Marriage builds out the foundation this episode assumes, and The Hidden Harm of Invalidation: Building a Safe Space for Your Wife covers the specific habit that does the most damage to it.
00:00 - What this episode is about
00:54 - Where these questions came from
01:17 - The real reason she says "I'm fine"
01:31 - What emotional safety actually means
03:46 - The deer, the wolf, and DEER mode
05:53 - "I had an emotional affair 10 years ago"
06:49 - Why "I'm fine" is the path of least resistance
07:32 - When "I'm fine" is teenager energy
08:11 - A gift for you
09:27 - How hormones change the answer
12:36 - Role play: what to actually say
13:31 - Why the words do not work without the energy
14:21 - Get into her world
17:07 - Is she expecting you to read her mind?
18:30 - Run the bath, handle dinner, be there
19:20 - The woman down the street
20:43 - In the moment of insight
What does it mean when my wife says she is fine?
In most cases it means she has decided the conversation is not worth the energy. Erin Holt's answer in this episode is that whether she is conscious of it or not, she does not feel safe sharing. That can come from past experience of being cut off or fixed, from resentment that has built up over a repeated conversation that goes nowhere, or from simple exhaustion. Occasionally it is a deliberate refusal to let you in, which Doug describes as a teenager energy version of the same two words. The response is the same either way: do not take it at face value, and do not force it.
What is emotional safety in a marriage?
Emotional safety is whether your wife believes she can go through the full arc of a feeling in front of you without being interrupted, fixed, defended against, or met with discomfort. Erin notes that the arc takes roughly ninety seconds when it is allowed to complete, and that it applies to joy as much as to pain. It is not the same as agreement, and it is not the same as keeping the peace.
What is DEER mode?
DEER is The Powerful Man's acronym for the four reactions of a deactivated man: Defend, Excuse, Explain, React. When a man is in DEER mode, his wife can feel it energetically before he speaks, and she adjusts how much truth she hands him accordingly. The opposite is the wolf: Wise, Open, Loving, Fierce. Doug's framing in this episode is to picture a woman walking alone through dark woods, first with a deer beside her and then with a wolf. The question of which one she feels safer with answers itself.
Does my wife want me to read her mind?
Partly, and Doug and Erin are honest that this is not the mature version of asking. When the hurt is about something between the two of you, part of her does want you aware enough to notice that your actions landed badly. Erin calls this a default mode people drop into when they are hurt rather than the best way to handle it. The practical answer is not mind reading. It is paying enough attention to her world that the shift is obvious to you.
What should I actually say when she says she is fine?
Doug's version in the episode is long. Erin's is shorter and she says it lands better: "I know you're not fine because I know and love you. I'm here when you're ready to talk about it. I've got you." Both of them then warn against reciting it. Doug's instruction is to make it yours, because a man reading from a cue card will not land no matter how good the words are.
How do hormones affect this?
Significantly, and most men are not factoring it in. Erin walks through the luteal phase, the roughly week-long window before bleeding starts, when hormones drop sharply. She describes being able to lift about half of her usual weight in the gym, feeling bone tired while every responsibility stays the same, and how hard something as ordinary as getting dressed becomes when your body is retaining water. None of that is an excuse for her behaviour. It is context you are currently operating without.
What if I am too resentful to do any of this?
Doug addresses this directly. He describes asking a man on a group call whether he would stop for a woman down the street who was having a hard time, listen to her, and console her. The man said yes immediately, because that is who he is. Doug's point is that there is a woman in his own house in exactly that position, and the only difference is the story he is telling himself about the past. Resentment is a story, and it is costing you the first move.
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Doug Holt 00:00
A guy knows something's wrong, but his wife's like, "Yeah, I'm fine."
Erin Holt 00:04
"I'm not having this conversation again. Whatever, I'm fine."
Doug Holt 00:06
"I want you to know I had an emotional affair 10 years ago."
Erin Holt 00:11
"Tell me how that X, Y, Z went." Get more in her world.
Doug Holt 00:15
Being able to share openly and honestly with each other, I think that's what everybody wants.
Erin Holt 00:19
When we feel seen and supported and loved, it goes really, really far.
Doug Holt 00:24
We can share unabashedly everything about ourselves without judgment.
Hey guys, have you ever run into the issue where you know something's wrong, but your wife just tells you everything is fine? Well, that's exactly what we're going to dive into in today's episode of the TPM Show. Babe, thanks for being here again.
Erin Holt 00:54
I'm here again, and I love it.
Doug Holt 00:56
I know. I'm glad we're squeezing another one in.
So this came from our community and actually was compiled from some of our social media posts. There's a bunch of questions, but the general theme to this is: you always say everything's energy. A guy knows something's wrong, but his wife's like, "Yeah, I'm fine. Don't worry about it." What's going on?
Erin Holt 01:17
Oh, there's going to be so many angles, but the biggest thing, whether she's even aware of it or not, is she doesn't feel safe sharing.
Podcast over. Goodbye.
She doesn't feel safe sharing. Or what were you gonna ask?
Doug Holt 01:31
Let's define safe.
Erin Holt 01:34
Okay, emotionally safe.
Doug Holt 01:34
Let's define that, though, because I didn't know what you meant more than a decade ago when you were like, "I don't feel safe," and I'm like, "What the heck are you talking about?"
Erin Holt 01:43
I get it. Cool.
I'm just thinking, I just gave a talk in the Inner Circle the other day about a woman feeling safe and what does that actually look like, and how you can support her.
If she doesn't feel safe, let's just say if she feels, in her experience of you when she shares, you instantly want to fix the problem for her and not really listen, so she doesn't get to go through the full arc of sharing her feelings. She's cut off short, and she's like, "He doesn't even know how to listen. He doesn't care. He's just trying to solve the problem so that he can, quote unquote, not have to deal with me or my emotions."
On that note, it also does not feel safe if we have the experience with you that you don't have the capability or the capacity to handle us having feelings and emotions, so we just shut down instead. Which, by the way, never works. Ladies know this. That will come out sideways.
The reality is, if you become her superstar, if you become a safe place for her where she feels she can share all of her emotions, including her joy—by the way, it's funny how being really joyful is really a vulnerable place to be—and if you actually give somebody, including a child, by the way, parents, a space to process and work through their emotions, it takes about 90 seconds, which can feel like forever when you're on the other side.
But in reality, if they can go through the full arc of feeling that emotion and have a space that's safe to do it, as a woman, it's like a deep breath. It's like an out-breath, and then she can access parts of herself again.
But if she has experience where she doesn't feel safe, where she can't share because you're trying to fix it, or you're noticeably uncomfortable, or your eyes glaze over, or you just get defensive, or all the things, it just doesn't feel safe.
Or if there's a situation between the two of you and you cut her off or interrupt her, it doesn't feel good to anybody, right? We know this.
Those are just really some of the big examples, I think, of where she doesn't feel safe.
Doug Holt 03:46
Yeah. So to drive this home to the men, I want you to imagine a woman walking in the woods late at night. It's foggy. It's dark.
Erin Holt 03:56
She would never be out there alone, but yes.
Doug Holt 03:58
Use your imagination, boys.
Alongside of her is a DEER to protect her. Right now, picture that same woman. Imagine how safe she'd feel with a DEER next to her. Now she has a WOLF next to her protecting her. Which woman feels safer?
Now, in TPM, we use DEER as an acronym for defend, excuse, explain, and react. When men go into DEER mode, defending themselves—so she's sharing something, he immediately starts defending. She's explaining something, he immediately starts getting into DEER mode. He's reacting, which is a common one, or trying to solve, or jumping in, or over-explaining.
She's not going to feel safe when you're in that mode. She can tell it energetically, but also, to your point, interrupting, reacting to what you're saying, or if she thinks you're going to react, it's not safe for her.
Conversely, if you're the WOLF—wise, open, loving, and fierce—she can tell you anything.
In fact, we had a guy who's been with us, and I have a bunch of them, but one in particular I'm thinking of. As he went from what we call deactivated, in the DEER, to activated—that's why we have our programs called The Activation Method, where men become activated—his wife, and this took a while, took actually a couple years, she felt so safe with him that she said, "Hey, I want you to know I had an emotional affair 10 years ago."
And his response—you know what his response was? "How amazing is this, Doug?" He goes, "This is the coolest thing ever, because you know what that means." And I knew, of course. "She feels safe enough with me for the first time in our marriage that she can share it, and she knows I can hold it."
He also took it as, "Our marriage is a 180. It's better than either of us could ever imagine."
Now obviously, guys, that doesn't necessarily have to be a good thing, right? She had an emotional affair. At the same time, she felt safe enough to share all of her with him, and that he wouldn't blow up or have a reaction or what have you, and he didn't.
This man, who's been doing the work for a number of years, was able to discernibly recognize that, "Hey, this is an awesome thing. We've gotten to the point where we can share unabashedly everything about ourselves without judgment."
That's what true partnership is. It doesn't mean there's no consequences to actions or anything like that. But being able to share openly and honestly with each other, I think that's what everybody wants.
Erin Holt 06:49
Yeah. So going back to what you said, I think when anybody says they're fine, it's basically BS. Let's just be real.
But it's definitely "fine" when a woman says, "I'm fine." Sometimes it just feels like the path of least resistance is going to take the least amount of energy at this stage. Like, "Oh my God, he can't hold this," or, "He's not going to understand," or, "He doesn't actually care anyway," because of what we just talked about, DEER mode.
Doug Holt 07:15
Or there's resentment, right?
Erin Holt 07:16
And resentment and fear.
Honestly, when you guys, or our man in particular, gets angry and raises your voice, that's really scary for us. Even if you're not going to hit us, right? Thank God. Hopefully you're not going to hit us. But that feels really unsafe.
Doug Holt 07:32
Yeah, I bet it does.
When I've picked up your "I'm fines," sometimes it comes from a teenager energy of like, "F you. I'm not going to share with you. I'll show you," kind of attitude. It's not a safety thing. It's more of a—and I'm not saying you do this, but I've picked this up for sure with a lot of people—it's an "F you" type of energy. "I'm not going to share my life with you."
Erin Holt 07:57
Yeah, I think with women, just kind of stereotyping, that can come from, let's say, if there's this continued pattern that's happening in your relationship and she's feeling really hurt by something, or I felt really hurt by choices that you've made—
Doug Holt 08:11
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I want to buy you a copy of the book that I wrote, A Man's Guide on How to Save Your Marriage Without Talking About It. In here, I've distilled over eight years of programs that we've developed at TPM to help men just like you save their marriages without talking about it.
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Look, all I ask is you pay the postage, you pay the shipping. I'll buy the book for you. That way, you can take massive action today. Click the link or find it in the bio and get your copy now.
Erin Holt 09:05
—and I'm not liking the behavior or the outcome that those choices create. I'm just like, "God, I'm not having this conversation again. Whatever, I'm fine."
I think that can come from more like, "I don't want to have the same conversation and slam my head off the wall again and have it just go nowhere."
Doug Holt 09:27
Yeah.
How much of this "I'm fine" can also be affected by hormones? Because I definitely notice that your hormones change, your moods can change, right?
Erin Holt 09:37
Every single week, yeah, they change.
Doug Holt 09:39
Yeah. So I'm curious how much all of this obviously can play into it, but particularly these questions, because I'm looking at all the questions we've got around this category that men have sent in.
Erin Holt 09:54
Obviously, I can speak for me, but I can speak for women in general.
The luteal phase, which, if you don't know, is a week-ish right before she starts bleeding, the drop in hormones is wild. I can't remember the percentages off the top of my head, but it's crazy high.
You literally feel bone tired, but none of your life changes, none of the responsibilities change. Everybody expects you to show up exactly the same. Life doesn't change just as you're getting your period, although in other countries they are having days off for that. Shout out to some countries in Europe.
During that time, everything is so much harder. I work out with three other women that come over to our garage that we converted to a gym, 6 a.m., Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I write our strength programs.
Every single woman, every single time, the workouts before our periods, we're like, "Oh my God, I can't. I literally cannot even lift what I lift. I can't do this." We lower our weights, and I'm like, "It's fine. You're not gonna get fat. There's nothing wrong with you. You're in your luteal phase. Your body is working so hard internally. There's not a baby in there, so it's shedding everything in there and releasing."
It takes an exorbitant amount of energy, not to mention that all your hormones have dropped a considerable amount.
That's just an easy, tangible way that people can understand. I can lift about half of what I can lift the other times in the month. Can I push through and do it because I have that athlete mind? Yes. Does it feel good? Absolutely not. Does it tank me more and make my luteal phase harder? A million percent.
That's a little educational piece. But sometimes during that phase, everything is harder, and she's not fine.
Actually, this topic came up on the call I was with the other day with the Inner Circle guys again. He was talking about how he noticed his wife was having a harder time getting dressed, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, it's maddening how much harder it is to get dressed during those times because your body is bloated. You're retaining water, you're retaining waste. Everything is retaining and larger."
Clothes that fit you last week either don't button or are so uncomfortably tight. Sometimes this feels like a big word to use, but it's debilitating to get dressed, especially if you're going somewhere where you want to feel cute, or you're going on a date with your partner, and you want to be like, "I just want him to look at me and feel..." But I feel disgusting and the opposite of cute.
"I'm fine" during that time is like, yeah, they're not fine.
Doug Holt 12:36
Well, yeah, we know they're not fine.
I'm looking at some of these questions. Some guys want the formula, so let's role-play, right? Let me know if this would work for a woman. So you say, "I'm fine."
Erin Holt 12:50
I'm fine.
Doug Holt 12:50
And I could say, "Babe, I know you're not fine, and I don't want to be disconnected. But if you don't want to talk about it now, I'm cool with that. But I'd like to be in a place where we can be connected and at least be on the same page, knowing what's going on. So let me know when you're ready to have a conversation."
Erin Holt 13:06
Yeah, that'd be great. Even simple, like you just said. It's like, "I know you're not fine because I know and love you. I'm here when you're ready to talk about it. I've got you." Something like that.
Doug Holt 13:15
That's even better.
Erin Holt 13:16
That's better.
Doug Holt 13:16
I'm gonna use that one. I was too wordy.
Erin Holt 13:19
"I've got you" goes so far if you genuinely mean it.
"I know you're not okay because I know and love you."
Doug Holt 13:25
"I know you're okay because I got you." Guys, reading from a cue card—
Erin Holt 13:29
Not gonna land.
Doug Holt 13:31
Yeah.
Guys, one of the things that we talk about—in fact, we have an event. We have 50 men coming to Spain in a couple weeks that I'll be leading the whole course curriculum on, and we have a bunch of coaches that are going to be doing it. Seventy-five percent actual experiential.
Guys are going to learn how to get into the energy that they need to have that conversation for it to land.
Erin Holt 13:55
I know. Favorite topic is energy.
Doug Holt 13:57
I know it is.
Originally, I wrote the whole thing up, and I'd be pontificating off the stage for nine hours or 11 hours, and so I changed it to be 75% experiential. Men will get feedback and understand what it feels like to be in that energy.
That's how you change, guys. That's how you change the "I'm fine" to, "Let me tell you what's really going on."
Erin Holt 14:21
One hundred percent.
And you can say that. Also, it's such a common question that we all—we see somebody or we walk back in our house like, "Oh, how you doing?"
Doug Holt 14:30
Good. How are you?
Erin Holt 14:31
Everybody's just like, "Fine. I'm good. Great." It's so boring.
Obviously, it's easy, but it's boring. Not with everybody, but with her, you could just be like, "What was your day like today?" or, "How's your heart?" Ask a specific question if you know she's working on something or going through something challenging or something really exciting.
"Tell me how that X, Y, Z went." Get more in her world.
Doug Holt 15:01
Yeah, it's amazing how many guys aren't.
When I ask guys, "What books does she read? Who's her—" The guys all think they know who her best friend is, and I think most guys don't. They know who her old best friend is, right? Because it changes from time to time.
We're not even talking about a best friend. The person that she's sharing with and what she's sharing.
Most men, and I'm going to guess women too, but most men for sure, when I talk to them, they are operating off an assumption that their wife is the same woman she was 10 years ago. How sad would that be, right?
I hope you're not the same woman six months from now. You've made changes. Obviously, there's parts of you I want enhanced or the same.
Get in her world. Just get curious. What is she into? Books she's reading is such an easy thing for me. You love reading, so I look at the books you're reading and try to get an idea, get through their themes or what she's interested in.
You're laughing over there already.
Erin Holt 16:10
Well, no, I'm not thinking about what the books you think about. I'm thinking about the book I'm currently reading and the text I sent you the other day that is very well received at this stage of our relationship.
I know that's very vague for the listeners. You can share if you want.
Doug Holt 16:25
No. I mean, you sent me a text, and you thought I was going to respond one way, and I responded—
Erin Holt 16:29
No, I didn't. I was laughing as I was sending it, thinking, "If this would have been in the past, this would not have been received well."
Doug Holt 16:34
Yeah, maybe. Maybe, maybe not.
Erin Holt 16:37
And now it is.
Doug Holt 16:38
Now it's received well, regardless of the past.
But that's exactly right. Some of your views have evolved, and my views have definitely evolved. Getting into her world.
So back to the question, and there's a lot of them here from these men about when she says she's fine. One of them says, "My wife says she's fine. Is she really secretly expecting me to read her mind, or is there another reason she just won't tell me?"
There can be an element of she wants you to read her mind. She wants you to—
Erin Holt 17:07
Be aware.
Doug Holt 17:08
To be aware and be conscious enough that you're interested, and you know when things are off.
Erin Holt 17:15
I would say most of the time that would happen if it's something that she's upset with, something between the two of you, or something, quote unquote, you've done. I don't know how to say that in a different way. That feels kind of gross.
Part of her is like, "Yeah, be aware enough to know that your actions hurt my feelings," or, "I'm pissed because you didn't do something."
That's when that time would come in. Be like, "You should know."
Nothing that's mature or the best way, but that's where we can happen in a default mode when we're hurt.
Doug Holt 17:41
It's her version of DEER mode, right? She's in default, if you would. She's deactivated.
You've got to remember, when we're hurt, oftentimes we're operating from a younger version of ourselves. It's not the hurt that happens at that time. It reminds us of previous indiscretions, if you will, that can come up.
But if we boil this whole thing down, she says, "I'm fine." She's not feeling safe. The best thing you can do as a man is be grounded in your energy and then tell her, "Look, I know you're not fine. I've got you. I'm here for you when you're ready to talk."
That's it.
I think if you do that without expectation, that's such a key us guys miss, because then it'll be, "Okay, cool. I said the formula. Go."
Erin Holt 18:30
Yeah, the formula. Go.
Also, "You're safe to share with me when you're ready."
If you know she likes—I'm just like, the bath came into something easy because I know a lot of women like to take baths—be like, "Hey, I know you're not okay right now," and say those things. "I'm here. I'm gonna run a bath for you. I've got dinner. I'll order takeout. I'll put the kids down. I'll clean up the rest of the kitchen," whatever.
We're all gonna go through hard times, and when we feel seen and supported and loved, it goes really, really far.
Doug Holt 19:06
Yeah, and so I'm gonna go back to what I went through with previous podcasts. A lot of guys have so much resentment. They're like, "Well, I'm not frigging doing that for her."
For you guys that are in this right now, going, "Well, I'm not gonna run her—I'm not gonna do this—"
Erin Holt 19:19
I'm just gonna say, "How's that working out for you?"
Doug Holt 19:20
Yeah, exactly.
I said this to a group of men on a call probably about a month ago or so. One of the guys was complaining about his wife, how disconnected they are, all the things she's doing wrong, and mentioned that she's going through a tough time.
I said, "You know what I know about you?" I won't say his name. I'm going to make it up and say his name is Russ. It's not.
"You know what I know about you, Russ? You're a great guy, and I know you're kind of the shirt-off-your-back type of guy." You could see him just kind of shaking his head yes.
I go, "If there was a woman down the block, down the street from your house, who was going through a tough time, would you stop, listen to her, and console her?"
You just saw his face just go, "Oh," because he got it like that.
"You have a woman in your house doing that right now, and you've got to get out of your own way, your own BS stories, and stop. Take some time, listen to her, console her, and just be there for her. You would do it for a stranger down the street because you're a great guy."
The only difference is the story that you're telling yourself about the past between the two. That really clicked for him. He's kind of like, "Oh wow, I would do that for the stranger."
Realizing that that resentment is just stories we tell ourselves can really help guys get out of their own way and start taking first action.
Erin Holt 20:43
I love that.
Doug Holt 20:44
How are you doing?
Erin Holt 20:45
I'm fine.
Doug Holt 20:46
I know you're not fine.
You're happy, which is great to see, as always. Babe, thanks again for your insights and coming on, staying a little bit longer. I know you have a really busy day, but I always love having you at the TPM Ranch when you get a chance.
Erin Holt 21:01
Yeah, thank you.
Doug Holt 21:02
Yeah, gentlemen, in the moment of insight, you know what to do. Take massive action.
Don't take "I'm fine," or any variation of that, at face value. Take what you're picking up. What do you feel in that moment? What do you really think is going on?
Then stop, breathe, get yourself grounded, and then step into your masculine, the WOLF, who's wise, open, loving, and fierce. Fierce means you can handle rejection.
Then tell her, "Hey, I know you're not fine. I've got you. I'm here for you when you're ready to talk," or whatever version works for you.
I encourage you not to just recite verbatim what Erin said or what I say. Make it yours. That's where it really happens.
But take action. I know a lot of you guys will think you're going to do this, but then you'll get scared because, "What if she rejects me?" or, "What's going to happen?"
Just go for it, man. Just jump with two feet in.
You deserve a life that's more than just average. You deserve a great life. You deserve an activated life.
We'll see you next time on the TPM Show.